162 replies to this topic

[Ekho]

My new favourite theory is that Nakomi = Verin, if only because I knew Nakomi seemed wierdly familiar when she appeared. Although I do like the idea of the seanchan travelling into an empty tower.

I've yet to decide if Cyndane/Lanfear's sudden repentance is genuine or not. Its seems more in character for her to be messing with Rand, then again she is pretty crazy so who knows.

Elaida's token reappearance has all but ruined her character, so I'm just going to pretend it never happened .

[FortyFiveAuto]

Hey yall.

Is the consensus on ToM meh? I think I came away from it feeling that way, too.

What of the weird "bots" at the Black Tower? Tarna Feir, among other weirdly-smiling clones? (Sorry if this was addressed before, haven't read through the entire thread yet).

Momo's back, huh? I never really thought Moiraine was THAT into Thom, but I guess I was wrong and the ladies of MW were dead on. Bravo!

Still feels like there are still quite a few loose ends, esp. concerning the Aiel and the Seanchan.

Why, in the epilogue, was Graendal cursing Perrin's ham??? edited for derp

Is there another dreamspike somewhere near the Black Tower? I wonder if Demandred is close by Mazrim Taim. RJ has said they are not the same.

Perrin's wolf stuff is bleh, but him deflecting balefire was pure PWN. I let out a "HA HA!" at that part, and people looked at me funny.

More observations/theories/reflections later...

Edited by FortyFiveAuto, 02 December 2010 - 08:26 AM.

[Olivia]

Ekho, on 16 November 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

Elaida's token reappearance has all but ruined her character, so I'm just going to pretend it never happened .

Same here. I like Elaida (don't ask me why, I know she's a complete, arrogant bitch but she's fun to read and she was hot in the comics), so I'm going to pretend she died hilariously in the Seanchan raid and never became a prisoner.

FortyFiveAuto, on 01 December 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

What of the weird "bots" at the Black Tower? Tarna Feir, among other weirdly-smiling clones? (Sorry if this was addressed before, haven't read through the entire thread yet).

Wow, long time no see, man! Welcome back. We think they were forcibly turned to the Shadow using the technique Sheriam mentioned waaaay back in TDR, where 13 channelers focusing their weaves through 13 Myrddraal can capture another channeler's soul for the Shadow. Supposedly it also completely twists the victim's personality and removes all good traits like empathy, compassion, etc. Poor Tarna, I liked her.

[Erika Sedai]

I did feel the book was overall very "meh".

Yes, the bots at the tower seem to be channelers turned to the Shadow. It would have been interesting to spend more time on that plotline than on Perrin's.

[Ekho]

I liked the book, so I wouldn't describe it as "meh". I did think the Perrin parts were overdone and drawn out, but apart from that I enjoyed it.

[Olivia]

Oh, Light - just stumbled across this fake fan cover for ToM and can't help but laugh.

[FortyFiveAuto]

Olivia, on 01 December 2010 - 06:45 AM, said:

Ekho, on 16 November 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

Elaida's token reappearance has all but ruined her character, so I'm just going to pretend it never happened .

Same here. I like Elaida (don't ask me why, I know she's a complete, arrogant bitch but she's fun to read and she was hot in the comics), so I'm going to pretend she died hilariously in the Seanchan raid and never became a prisoner.

FortyFiveAuto, on 01 December 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

What of the weird "bots" at the Black Tower? Tarna Feir, among other weirdly-smiling clones? (Sorry if this was addressed before, haven't read through the entire thread yet).

Wow, long time no see, man! Welcome back. We think they were forcibly turned to the Shadow using the technique Sheriam mentioned waaaay back in TDR, where 13 channelers focusing their weaves through 13 Myrddraal can capture another channeler's soul for the Shadow. Supposedly it also completely twists the victim's personality and removes all good traits like empathy, compassion, etc. Poor Tarna, I liked her.

AH you know I hadn't thought of that in a while. Yes, it sounds like that's what happened. HOWEVER: how could this have happened at the Black Tower?

Don't you need a circle of 13 to force someone over to the "dark side"?

Men can't circle. There needs to be, what, one more woman than the number men in a circle?

If that's correct, then they'd need at least 7 women, right?

Hmmm...can you think of any recent emissary groups to the Black Tower consisting of 7 or more sisters? I think you just might have figured out someone not on Verin's list!

Edited by FortyFiveAuto, 03 December 2010 - 05:25 AM.

[Deadsy]

FortyFiveAuto, on 03 December 2010 - 05:20 AM, said:

Hmmm...can you think of any recent emissary groups to the Black Tower consisting of 7 or more sisters?

*bonks you on the head*

Tons of Black Ajah just fled the White Tower. I'm pretty sure Taim could find some girls to help with the turning.

[Olivia]

That bonking wasn't necessary. >_> Your answer makes sense too, but he's right that it's quite possible at least some of Egwene's sent sisters were Black Ajah, and it's also possible some of the 51 sisters sent by Elaida were also BA, especially since the Reds have a higher proportion of BA. Some of Liandrin's original 13 are also unaccounted for, and we also have to take into consideration the fact that the Black Tower probably has Moridin's sponsorship, so he could have ordered some BA there before the fiasco with Mesaana in the Tower, even without Alviarin's knowledge.

[FortyFiveAuto]

Consider also that of sisters amid the White Tower, Verin's list is pretty thorough.

We can be fairly certain that Taim and possibly everyone loyal to him is a darkfriend. Else why would they have made such a huge spectacle of the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule," which was something spoken to Demandred.

In spite of this, it seems that Aes Sedai of any kind don't reside in Taim's palace.

Hence, known Black sisters wouldn't be holed up in the Black Tower -- they'd be out the open, where any walkers-in-the-Light could identify them, unless they all walk around with Mirror of Mists inverted disguises, which I am pretty sure most Black sisters cannot do (I guess that would depend on their place in the Shadow's pecking order).

If all that is true, then your tons of Black sisters who fled the White Tower, the ones identified by Verin anyway, won't have solace in the Black Tower. They'd need to be elsewhere, concealed.

Here's where I get hazy: all of Elaida's 51 member emissary are bonded by Asha'man; the sisters don't bond them.

You see, in ToM, Taim said to Pevara and Javindhra that there was a group of sisters from the White Tower that were waiting to bond Asha'man. Pevara dismisses them as rebels. Who are these sisters? Egwene's rebels? But if the Tower is whole again and Egwene is Amyrlin, would Pevara refer to such sisters as rebels?

If they are Elaida's emissaries, they've already been bonded. Not only that, but they are visible to Pevara, the leader of the Black Ajah Task Force. She would recognize them as the Black sisters they are, if there were any in that group, which I doubt.

It's possible, I presume, that since the Asha'man bond sort of "compels" sisters to do their bidding, that they might weave in a manner that suits darkfriends, all against their will. It would need to be determined if this Asha'man bond can compel a sister to the point where she can break her Oaths.

Crazy stuff, this Wheel of Time.

[Olivia]

FortyFiveAuto, on 03 December 2010 - 06:20 AM, said:

You see, in ToM, Taim said to Pevara and Javindhra that there was a group of sisters from the White Tower that were waiting to bond Asha'man. Pevara dismisses them as rebels. Who are these sisters? Egwene's rebels? But if the Tower is whole again and Egwene is Amyrlin, would Pevara refer to such sisters as rebels?

Pretty sure those "rebels" are the group sent by Egwene's side. News travels slowly, plus the chronology of WoT atm is not completely aligned, so it's possible Pevara thought of them as rebels because: a) they hadn't yet heard the Tower had been reunified by Egwene, or b ) it's earlier in the timeline and Egwene is still working on it, or c) Pevara still thinks of them as rebels for going against Elaida in the past, even though the Tower has been reunified now

FortyFiveAuto, on 03 December 2010 - 06:20 AM, said:

Crazy stuff, this Wheel of Time.

I hear you on that one.

[Deadsy]

I certainly don't think the BA are all living there, but it wouldn't be difficult to have 7 living there. It wouldn't be hard to hide them in the palace.

None of the 51 sent by Elaida are Black Ajah. Alviarin made sure of it (in her own PoV), and even if they were, they are all bonded to Logain loyalists who aren't at the BT anymore.

I just find it incredibly unlikely that any of the emissaries sent are BA. They were sent before the BA was outed. I think the BA involved with having them sent would have made sure none were BA, just as Alviarin did the first time.

Quote

It would need to be determined if this Asha'man bond can compel a sister to the point where she can break her Oaths.

No. We've seen this before with the BA hunters. It makes them choke, and they would die if the command isn't taken away.

Edited by Deadsy, 03 December 2010 - 06:45 AM.

[Olivia]

Deadsy, on 03 December 2010 - 06:43 AM, said:

None of the 51 sent by Elaida are Black Ajah. Alviarin made sure of it (in her own PoV)

Ah, right, I forgot about that PoV in ACoS. My mistake.