Thom and Moiraine

[Asmodean82 0]

Okay!

I just read the letter in Knife of Dreams for the first time.

 

Now my thoughts are all over the place. Did Moiraine and Thom know one another before Emonds Field? I mean that's never stated, but it struck me that the last time they talked to one another was a most uncertain conversation in TSR. They sized each other up, as it were.

 

Yes, Thom always seemed to find her attractive.

And she seemed amused by him, but.........................

 

Romance?????

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. They're two of my favorite characters.

Both interesting, unique, and barely used after TFoH! But.................

 

Romance?????

 

Was anyone else blindsided by the Jordan there? I always avoided the discussion till now because I still wanted to see how that relationship built. It seems to me that they really had to know each other in some way.

 

My line of thought comes from TEoW when they first encounter each other. "He seemed not best pleased to find her there." She addressed him as "Master Bard" as if she had some sense of who he used to be.

 

I don't know. I'm just hoping that Jordan wasn't projecting his own dirty old man fantasies on his characters. Something he does far too often as it is. Come on, the nude woman seem to increase by book. Now as I guy I suppose it's odd I should complain. It just seemed over indulgent at times.

 

So when and how did Moiraine and Thom become a thought????

[Marie 73]

I honestly don't think they met before Emond's Field. Otherwise, Thom wouldn't have tried to "surprise" Moiraine with his knowledge about her background in TSR.

 

I began to suspect Thom had a thing for her after he read her letter and told Mat that comment about friends, enemies, lovers. Moiraine returning the feelings was a shock. I thought they wouldn't fall in love until after he saved her.

 

But, thinking about how fast Lan/Nynaeve happened, or Rand/Ladies, it really isn't that surprising.

[Olivia 26]

Yeah, it's pretty much RJ's dirty, old-fashioned mind. No matter how old and unattractive the guy, in WoT he always gets a younger hot wife or three.

 

Maybe it was influenced by his marriage to Harriet, since I believe she's younger than he was. (I got a glimpse of her when I went to a convention to hear RJ speak a few years ago. It was really cute how he introduced her; since it was ComicCon, there were a lot of people dressed as superheroes, so he said something like, "You may have mistaken that beautiful woman for Wonder Woman, but that's my editor Harriet." Stuff like that and the fact that he dedicated almost all his books to her obviously shows that he adored her.) But yeah, the romances in WoT do get rather silly and can sometimes seem like old-fashioned (though not necessarily malicious) sexism.

[Ekho 52]

I would assume Moiraine would know who Thom was, but I doubt they knew each other from before.

 

And yes I was completely blindsided by Thom/Moiraine and still hope that we've all read far too much into that letter

[Marie 73]

There are only so many ways to read "My dearest Thom" and "holds me in the same affection you seem to".

 

Not to mention Thom willing to risk death for her (he is willing to go to the Tower with or without Mat, and without Mat it means sure failure).

 

I mean, compared to other relationships in the story, M/T have actually had more time to get to know each other. Especially if you compare them to Siuan and Bryne.

[Brynefan 2]

There are similarities. Bryne only fell madly in love with "Mara" after she had run away. Perhaps Mo's disappearance did the same for Thom, only they haven't met again since.

[Marie 73]

Yeah, except Thom/Moiraine had actual conversations beforehand. And he knew her real name.

 

I can accept Thom's feelings for Moiraine, because there were plenty of signs he at least wanted to see her naked. It is the Moiraine half of the equation I'm having difficulty with.

[Kaitlin 22]

Dena, I am convinced, was Thom's way of getting with Moiraine without actually getting with her.

 

I don't know if they met before EotW, but if they did it really could only have been for a brief amount of time. The way they speak to each other later on doesn't indicate that they knew each other well.

 

What I wondered was whether RJ did some kind of thing that he did with Egwene, having Moiraine "meet" him in dreams to ...get information or whatever (who'd know why exactly). That would make Moiraine getting mushy be a little more believable. I like Mo/Thom, but I was surprised by the "Dearest" as well. Maybe since she's not a Dreamer she could control what Thom dreamed about even less, and grew to really like how attracted he is to her. Well, that sounds really pervy, but also she just could have gotten to know him better. Hey! I worked hard to imagine why she'd immediately like him ... even though RJ does that all the time.

 

Thom himself would be likable to someone like Moiraine though. Except for the fact that RJ made him 130 years old he has the characteristics I could see that she'd like.

 

Obviously there's imagination, he's protective, and funny. She did laugh (at >: )) with him a lot on the road after EotW. He's confident and he likes women for themselves even if they happen to be Queens. It wasn't that he was attracted to her power, or I don't think he'd have responded the way he did to Elayne when she found out about it. He's not the most macho guy, and Moiraine seems to like the pretty ones.

 

If he was just closer to her age. That is the thing that bugs me! She's in her 40s. He could be 40s-50s even and still would have been old enough to get involved in the stuff from the past.

[Brynefan 2]

55 would be a good age for Thom. He could still have white mustaches then but be so much fresher.

[Kaitlin 22]

And with less arthritic joints.

 

Maybe it is like how RJ was with height. Somebody asked him how short Momo was once and he said something like, "Oh I don't know, 5'3 or 5'4." That is not shortest of short. Somebody asked him later on and he corrected himself and told them she was something like 5'. So maybe Thom is 70.... er, 55.

[Olivia 26]

Didn't Basel Gill say something like Thom was "in his prime" back when he was Morgase's lover? That was only fifteen years ago... Either RJ has a weird idea of when ppl are "in their prime", or Thom is actually a lot younger than 70.

[Vertex 23]

Oh, didn't we suspect somewhere that Thom was made younger-ish in later books? I seem to recall Marie telling me about some passage where Thom is described as worn and wrinkly in the first book.

[Brynefan 2]

Didn't Basel Gill say something like Thom was "in his prime" back when he was Morgase's lover? That was only fifteen years ago... Either RJ has a weird idea of when ppl are "in their prime", or Thom is actually a lot younger than 70.

 

Ishy was described as in his prime too and he didn't even have a white hair then. It makes you think.

 

I think Gareth was supposed to be a lot older at first too. There are inconsistencies, mainly in TEoTW. If you ignore what Gawyn says in that book everything is fine. (Stupid Gawyn) Perhaps it's the same with Thom. They fall into the same category

[Marie 73]

Morgase says Thom was twice her age back then, so he would have been in his forties at least (Morgase is of the same gen as Moiraine). Thom left Morgase around when Elayne was 2-3, which was about 18 years ago, close enough to 20. The youngest Thom could be is in his 60s.

 

You have to remember that what people over 30 consider prime isn't the same as the youngins.

 

My point being, whether we like it or not, Moiraine is wanting to knock boots with an old guy.

[Brynefan 2]

But 60-65 is still better than 70. The difference is huge. Most of my relatives are that age, so I have a lot of people to compare.