What Moiraine chose (Spoilers)

[Kaitlin 22]

If you haven't read FoH get out now! I'm not hiding anything in spoiler tags.

 

 

Marie linked this to me, which has Leigh Butler's Commentary on the chapter after Moiraine jumped through the doorway.

 

The whole notion of choice is interesting here.

 

This is all that we said on it so far:

 

Kat: Oh Leigh Butler

I read the first few of these

 

Marie: I only kept reading because of Moiraine *admits*

I mean that post. I can't be bothered to read the rest of her...thoughts. I don't know it's weird, because I kind of side with Rand on his Moiraine issue.

Sent at 12:06 AM on Friday

 

Kat: In a way she hasn't quite got the chivalry thing down. I believe it was started by a Lady who was disgusted by the deplorable way noblemen were treating women in general... although I am thinking back to college classes and I just tried googling and didn't find anything on the first page about it. So, that might not be right. But that's a roundabout way of saying that it's a little more complicated than that, although treating women like fragile objects incapable of making their own choices is not cool to me.

I can see his point of view though.

 

Marie: Well I see his point in that Moiraine took away his choice. I also feel she took away Lan's choice. I guess I'm more interested in Moiraine taking away people's choices than Leigh's political rants

 

Kat: Moiraine did take away Lan's choices early on. More than one

She acted before Rand could finish deciding more than took his choice away, I feel like.

 

Marie: I refuse to chat about it because history has shown when we chat about something we tend to not repeat the good stuff on the forum Well, I know I tend to be lazy in that regard: "I told it to Kaitlin therefore the world"

 

Kat: Say it in MW so we can discuss this thing

 

Marie: You should make the thread *armfold* I can bribe you evily if you like

 

I have made this thread! Now the discussion?

[Marie 73]

Now everyone knows I have to bribe you!

 

I can already tell I might regret bringing up Lan because I know some people don't like how she treats him period, but I think they have a really great friendship and want them to be reunited. OK fluffy moment over.

 

Having said that, I have never liked how she (and all the other women) just decide that Lan belongs with Nynaeve and who cares what he says we're going to make them a couple anyway! Passing his bond onto Myrelle I can understand in theory although obviously asking beforehand would have been best. It is Moiraine choosing Nynaeve afterwards that rubs me majorly wrong. It's even worse that she and Myrelle don't tell him, or even Nynaeve for that matter, although in Moiraine's case she probably got some childish glee out of keeping things from the Wisdom. And well, she wouldn't be around to deal with that violent girl child anyway.

 

Passing Lan around like that is not cool, dude. But frankly, if given a chance Nynaeve would have forced the bond on Lan if she had to, and I can easily see Elayne/Egwene arranging things so Lan had to be with Nynaeve. Oh wait, Egwene already did that, although in a milder form than what I am thinking, but manipulation is manipulation.

 

My point is Lan is older than all of these women (well maybe not Myrelle) and I don't like them treating him like some idiot child. Even so, that whole chapter where Moiraine tells Lan about (some of) what she did is so sad for me because I think she knows she's began to lose her friend to Haughty Wisdom. And like Vertex so often says, she ain't go a lot of friends.

 

Now. Rand. Knowing Rand he probably would have made a foolish plan/choice based on his aversion to seeing harm, especially fatal harm, come upon a woman. This is the man who didn't want anyone stealing the ter'angreal from the Waste not so much because he cared about them personally, but because he figured Moiraine cared about them and he didn't want her losing something she apparently cared about. It stands to reason he wouldn't want her losing her LIFE so yeah, his choice probably wouldn't have been one Moiraine liked. Even so that doesn't mean she and the Wise Ones should get the final say on everything. But it is tricky and I can see the bind she was in, because Rand/Lan would have made her job more difficult.

 

But then again that scene always felt like self-fulfilling prophecy to me anyway. I hate the whole dreams/foretelling thing. Unless it foretells Moiraine's return and lots of Thom babies.

[Kaitlin 22]

Everyone knows I accepted the bribe!

 

The thing I find tricky about the Moiraine/Rand/Lanfear doorway thing is that Moiraine saw it all beforehand and had very little choice in the matter, so she believes, unless she wants to see Rand dead or turned evil. She *really* didn't seem to like the idea of doing what she was going to do even though she had talked about needing to die for her cause so many times before.

 

Although I'm not siding with her. I'm just not siding against her either. (I'm not saying you are siding one way or another either ) The way I feel about is that outside of her knowing about everything beforehand... her getting thrown under the cart in the beginning of that disaster gave Rand some time to try and fight Lanfear off on his own.

 

He got the chance to start to make his choice without being able to actually finish choosing to either attack Lanfear with the intent of killing her or joining with her to save Egwene and Avi. At that point I feel he'd wasted time not being able to decide and was no longer able to fight off Lanfear.

 

Moiraine saved his ass. I don't know if he would have been able to stop Lanny at that point.

 

Although, I do feel for him. I don't feel that the way he behaved having to do with Moiraine was entirely jerky, chivalrous or controlling although he was definitely that way with a lot of other women. Hell, all the other women. With Moiraine he seemed to actually care about what she thought and felt, which is why I don't really wish death on him in later books.

 

As far as Lan goes... Moiraine controlled him. Maybe the women try to control him because he is so stoney and unresponsive. His stubbornness is annoying as is his deathwish. Moiraine and the others do treat him like a child, and that's not really ok.

 

When Lan falls in love he does so with a very up front woman. Nynaeve tells people how she thinks it is, and she doesn't fool around. That's what he's attracted to, and Moiraine's methods aren't really like that. I not saying there's something romantic between Mo/Lan, but they do have a Warder and Aes Sedai relationship. Her usual methods don't work as well with Lan in the same way that Nynaeve's do. He just seems to get more stubborn and stoney about it. I can see why Moiraine would have chosen to manipulate him (and take his choices away) but I don't have to like it.

 

Bah, I want to say more about this but I'll wait until my thoughts are clearer.

[Marie 73]

I think part of the issue with Moiraine is is that she is Cairhienin. I don't think she would know how to not play the Game of Houses, it'd be like me deciding to live as an illiterate. That is to say, manipulation is in her bones. Aside from the bond passing, I have no real issues with how Moiraine treated Lan.

 

In fact, it seems she manipulated so he couldn't impede on her choice to risk her life. My problem with RJ is that 1) when did Moiraine tell to Myrelle to pass the bond on to Nynaeve and 2) how convenient that whole plot-line was since at the time Moiraine had no plans on what was basically suicide. But that's another story.

 

Moiraine is doing what she was raised and trained to do, as is Rand and Lan in their desire to save her from herself. It just so happens in this case it comes head-to-head.

 

And let's be honest, Nynaeve isn't always upfront, she's just transparent. What I mean is, well first off she tends to make things look better for herself than they are, not to mention she kind of lies to herself. She won't say the truth if it makes her look foolish or she just plain doesn't like it. This is perhaps most evident with Moiraine. When in book two Moiraine tells Nynaeve she won't stand a chance bringing her down without training Nynaeve (badly) plays innocent. Nynaeve can be blunt and loud, but she is just as guilty of being a manipulator as Moiraine. Which is why I call her--with affection --Moiraine Jr. I'm not sure what my point is, so let's just ignore me.

 

Or maybe I was eventually getting to this: Moiraine did what she did out of love. Misguided, maybe, but then Lan wants to keep Nynaeve away from him out of the same kind of misguided love. Well not the same-same, you know...Moiraine loves him like a feral brother. Now I've lost my train of thought again.

 

With the Moiraine/Rand/Lanfear thing I side with Moiraine even if I wonder what would have happened if they hadn't gone to the docks. (sorry but I'll always wonder about that!) Rand was not going to be able to kill Lanfear.

 

With the Lan/Moiraine/Myrelle/Nynaeve (whew!) thing I...don't know. Moiraine saved his life the first when she bonded him, and probably other times through the years, and of course she saved it by passing the bond on to Myrelle. She wanted him to live and have happiness with Nynaeve and it is hard for me to fault her for that. But then, I also think Lan has the right to avoid Nynaeve like the plague if he feels like it, so I am torn.

[Kaitlin 22]

Well not the same-same, you know...Moiraine loves him like a feral brother. Now I've lost my train of thought again.

 

With this I pictured them out in the Blight and those mountains above the Waste just fighting and living all ferally, except that Moiraine still looked ready for a noble's dance party at any moment.

 

Dance party. Yes. Now I am picturing dance parties of the 80s. Maybe I should just stop!

 

As far as Moiraine doing what she does out of love: I agree and know that's why she did it. She is Cairhienin. She shows love by having people shipped off to god knows where doing exactly what they don't want to do. I love her character for her Cairhieninness.

 

By upfront I don't pretend that Nynaeve is not oblivious. In some ways all of RJ's women are manipulative. I think he missed the memo of that sort of behavior being common to one gender only if they have no other means of having their needs met. Women aren't equal in wot but they are more equal in some ways than many groups of women are irl, but still they manipulate. I think Nynaeve is a badly practiced Moiraine though. I don't see it as much as Elayne! I like Nynaeve for herself, however. Her fibbing, bullish, sometimes frightened self.

 

Rand just lost Moiraine and was in a pretty bad state. Also, Egwene and Avi were badly hurt and maybe dead, and yet he was still in a certain frame of mind to want to save Lan from killing himself. I think he cared a lot about Moiraine _and_ Lan. there was another time when Lan was near death and Rand could have let him die and yet he could not. Lan and his deathwishes.

[Marie 73]

By upfront I don't pretend that Nynaeve is not oblivious. In some ways all of RJ's women are manipulative. I think he missed the memo of that sort of behavior being common to one gender only if they have no other means of having their needs met. Women aren't equal in wot but they are more equal in some ways than many groups of women are irl, but still they manipulate. I think Nynaeve is a badly practiced Moiraine though. I don't see it as much as Elayne! I like Nynaeve for herself, however. Her fibbing, bullish, sometimes frightened self.

I can only really love Nynaeve if Moiraine isn't around, true facts. But mostly I just feel tempted to defend Moiraine from the eventual attacks by Vertex and his partner-in-crime Jan!

[Cerendrallion 32]

Its been awhile since I've read WoT, so bear with me and forgive any facts that are wrong...

 

What I gathered is people disagree with the way that Moiraine passed Lan's bond without his consent to Myrelle, and that Moiraine 'chose' Nynaeve as his ultimate wife. To be perfectly honest, I don't think this is necessarily treating Lan as a 'child'. I thought what Moiraine was doing was attempting to save Lan from fruitlessly avenging her, and given Lan's whole 'if you love a woman leave her because you'll destroy her' malarky, I don't think he'd be up for passing his bond to someone that perhaps was not as dedicated to destroying evil as Moiraine was. Nynaeve, too, he was reluctant to 'make her a widow before she was a bride', something like that.

 

I assumed what Moiraine did was essentially save Lan's life by ensuring he had something else to live for, in this case Myrelle, also to give Nynaeve time to grow and mature as an individual and an Aes Sedai. What Moiraine did was ensure their ultimate happiness, and not burden Nynaeve with a Warder who was still mourning her.

[Iris 0]

I agree with Laura. I don't think she was trying to control Lan for the sake of controlling him or b/c its in her nature. I think she cared about him and just wanted to see him live on after her. Imagine what in the world he would've done had he not had a bond with Myrelle after she "died" (killed himself in the Blight, that's what!). Who wants to go through with their own "death" knowing that the person they perhaps care about the most is going to shortly after go kill themselves because of it? The choice of Myrelle was 1) she has a rep for saving Warders and 2) she and Mo were friends so they trust each other and Mo trusts Myrelle to pass the bond to Nynaeve. She couldn't give the bond to Nynaeve yet bc Nyna was not yet Aes Sedai. Otherwise I think Mo totally would have given it to her. Mo knew Lan would not be in a fit mental state to make good choices once she was gone. In that way he was like a child, really.

 

Obviously Mo wants Lan to marry Nyna cause she knows he loves her, and Mo had to make that clear to Myrelle, which is why Myrelle had instructions to pass it. Imagine if Myrelle didn't know about the Nyna thing and Nyna showed up wanting Lan! Mo herself said she knew Myrelle would want to keep Lan, so she had to explain the Lan/Nyna thing to Myrelle. Otherwise she would keep him for herself.

 

By the way I don't think Lan was totally oblivious to all this. He already knew Moiraine made these arrangments to pass the bond to Myrelle to save him from killing himself, but if you will remember in the Great Hunt Mo tells Lan that Myrelle will pass the bond to one who is better suited. Lan starts to ask her who she had in mind and she abruptly cuts him off and changes the subject. Mo is jealous about Lan and she despises feeling that way, so she definitely would not want to have an open discussion with Lan about how she wants Myrelle to give the bond to Nynaeve. But I'm sure he pieced it together. His problem is he doesn't want Nyna to end up with a dead man walking which is why he isn't proactive about finding Nyna once he's with Myrelle (until Egwene gives him that little kick in the pants).

 

This might sound stupid but I really don't understand what all of Rand's "choices" were at the docks. Perhaps someone can list them to clarify I just understood that if Mo didn't take out Lanfear, either he would be killed or would become her lover. Scary.

[Cerendrallion 32]

This might sound stupid but I really don't understand what all of Rand's "choices" were at the docks. Perhaps someone can list them to clarify I just understood that if Mo didn't take out Lanfear, either he would be killed or would become her lover. Scary.

 

That's all I gathered too - there were 3 pathways that Moiraine saw from the docks - one was Lanfear killed Rand, the other was that she carried him off and the next time they seen him he would call himself Lews Therin and be her devoted lover, the third was the outcome that transpired.

 

Personally, I think she made the right choice.

[Marie 73]

First off, Kate and I were posting when we should have been in bed. I'm not really sure what we were posting about half the time.

 

However, from what I do recall, the blog post made the argument that Rand (and Lan's) desire to protect Moiraine was making her less and voiding her ability to make her own choices. But then one could say Moiraine was taking away their ability to make a choice as well.

 

So it wasn't really a "debate" just...discussion.

[Iris 0]

that's a weird blog post. i always got the impression that Moiraine called the shots. sorry if we sounded debate-ish, marie!

[Kaitlin 22]

I'm not sure what I posted last night.

 

Butler's commentary had a lot to do with chivalry, and Rand's notion of protecting women sort of being a part of a mode of chivalry. Putting a woman up on a pedestal and making choices to protect her takes away her right as a human being to make choices that could endanger her.

 

Did Rand try to do that with Egwene and Avi and get messed up because his foe was Lanfear?

 

Moiraine made her choices but though she acted before Rand's decisions found a conclusion I don't believe she really took away anything from him.

 

She did, I feel, take away Lan's choices. He knew about them and I agree that she probably did the best she could have done for his sake.

 

There's no way she would have passed the bond right to Nynaeve. Moiraine knew how destructive Warders can get after losing Aes Sedai. Also, Nynaeve was an Accepted. Nyn knew nothing about a bond transfer. Even if Moiraine could do it without the other woman knowing I don't think she would have. Moiraine suspected almost everyone else of being Black Ajah, and like Laura was talking about Myrelle really was the best one to help him.

[Marie 73]

I can agree with Moiraine's choices but I find myself siding with Rand which is a very odd place for me to be and I think I might need a moment alone.

[jan 14]

Like Marie said, chatting on IM about a subject takes away all the "good" stuff! So in what follows I'm just going to cut and paste the conversation Kate and I had about it. *too lazy to spell it all out again*

 

In general, I agree with Leigh Butler's analysis of chivalry and why it's not cool and why Rand actually earns his epithet of wool-head. What I think is completely off the mark is about RJ writing from a feminist viewpoint. I think Jordan wouldn't know that if it bit him in the... er... you know what I mean. That is not to mean he didn't *try* or that he didn't think he was addressing the feminist perspective; just that he was off by many degrees.

 

I also don't agree about it being okay to throw Lan around like that. That Moiraine was only trying to save his life and keep him from avenging her death is not a good enough reason in my book. If you make a choice, you also choose to be responsible for its consequences. If Lan was stupid enough get himself killed because he couldn't handle's Mo's "death", serves him right! That said, the choice Moiraine made about jumping into the ter'angreal with Lanfear was a choice made for herself, which, in my book again, makes it hers to make, so it's fine. OK am I rambling? Let me just post our chat now, though we did ramble off in that too:

 

Jan

That's what gets me about the Rand issue. It seems to me that RJ intended it as "noble" thing in Rand. I can't kill women... *ssssob* poor me!

Kate

I know, it is all about him

meanwhile he's got his friends, who are women, dying next to him.

and that's just more angst for Rand

Jan

I know. He grieves for moiraine but basically feels sorry for himself for not being able to kill lanfear

Kate

the thing that bothers me is that he longs to trust Moiraine the whole time but can't until she "submits" to him.

It's not just about being open with him and promising not to manipulate. It's about seeing that she follows his orders. For really stupid shit too, like standing outside until she stops being angry.

Jan

*nod*And also the whole Aes Sedai distrusting. It's difficult to take the context out of it. Women in control are busybodies. Nynaeve's characterization is the same.

Kate

yeah, exactly

RJ's portrayal of women got worse and worse.

Jan

funny... the ashaman are feared; the aes sedai distrusted

fear has an element of submission.

so you can accept men with power and submit to them, but skirt around women with power and question their motives.

Kate

ashamen are also praised in the books. They are described in very positive ways even though the actions they are taking are quite harmful and that's acknowledged.

You're right about the fear thing.

Jan

they have the military mindset and lots of people believe war is honourable.

WoT is about winning a war after all.

Kate

*nods*

Jan

I guess the Ashaman are taking on the enemy directly, visibly, which makes them honourable. The Aes Sedai are sneaky and political and stuff, which makes them blah

(very articuate!)

culate*

...

Jan

Though I'm not agreeing with what Butler says about Jordan writing from a feminist perspective.

He (Jordan) might have thought he was, but he got things badly wrong.

Kate

The way I read his stuff is that he was going there in certain ways but his views were highly unexamined. And maybe his works were influenced by his wife and assistant more in the beginning.

Jan

*nod* I suppose the unexamined-ness comes in when we notice all the stereotyping that (maybe accidentally) seeps in in the way men and women are characterised.

Kate

But, on the other hand I think he was headed in a certain direction that was very problematic from the very beginning.

Jan

how do you mean from the beginning?

Kate

Well, with the one power being divided the way it is for one thing

Jan

Actually I find that very problematic, to be honest.

Kate

having a binary power system is very heteronormative... and cisgender privileged.

Jan

It's again social conditioning that makes us believe that men have power and women guile... yeah that!

Kate

men fight to control the power and women accept being controlled by it

Jan

*nod*

And also that both the good and the evil in WoT are male.

Kate

And that the Dragon can only ever be male

Jan

The AS are way powerful, but they're looking for a boy-child that will save them and the world!

Kate

also... that Dragonmount; the penis, made Tar Valon; the vagina

Jan

It sort of disregards the position of women as equal shareholders in the world. They _HAVE_ to depend on the outcome of a fight between two males.

Kate

And even though the men screwed things up it was really the women's fault in the first place because they wouldn't fight with them and because of Lanfear

Jan

What's that about dragonmount and tar valon?!

Kate

in the beginning of book one LTT creates dragonmount, which is a big penis shape. Dragonmount splits the river by it and "makes" Tar Valon island, which when you look at a map of it looks just like the vulva around the vagina and the clit hood at the top.

RJ said in a question and answer thing one time that this was not a mistake

Jan

So much for his feminist perspective!

Kate

yep

I am perplexed by Moiraine though, who does seem like a feminist character. Is she though?

She can be read as either being that way at her "death" or the opposite depending on things, but I wonder what RJ's intention was. The fact was that she was always wrong about everything and Rand was right for the simple reason that he was the Dragon and was born to be the right one all the time.

Jan

I know she took Rand's choice away, which is something Rand always does to women. I know that make it right for anyone to do it, but redressing the balance is a valid issue.

Jan

Also, like you said... (oh I just have to c/p this to the post! )... he was the Dragon Reborn so always right!

Kate

I was saying in there that I didn't entirely think that she did take his choice away

Jan

No, no. I mean, so what if she did?

Kate

He did have time to make his choice, he just dithered until he was unable to stop Lanny

Well, if she did she was doing what she needed to do for the good.

Jan

She doesn't do it in a manner that is derogatory to men, or short people, or dark-eyed ones, or whatever!

Kate

Yes, she doesn't

in fact she struggles with this choice she has to make

it is an unpleasant one for her. She took Rand's choice away but what choice did she have?

Jan

I just don't think it's as simplistic as saying she took Rand's choice away. We take away choices from other people whenever we make a deicision.

It's not always about Rand. Everyone around him can't go about saying "Oh, if I do this, will I take away XYZ's choice to do that?"

Kate

*nods* That's true

But as far as Lan goes I think she did do that

but it was out of caring for him and not wanting him dead because of the certain effect of the bond.

Jan

That's true. She wasn't good to Lan.

Kate

I don't really like that he was handed off like a package, but on the other hand she wanted him to be alive

not because she had all of these chores for him after her death and didn't really care whether he lived or died

It wasn't that way that I know of anyway

Jan

or didn't trust him to make it by himself

Kate

*nods*

okie, I have to go to bed!

Jan

I have to go to lunch! I will copy paste this to MW!

You owe me a chocolate cake!

Kate

*gives you a chocolate cupcake instead... *

[Kaitlin 22]

ehehehe, what the hell was I on about the whole penis and vagina thing! I can't remember where I read about RJ having said that he meant it to be that way. Maybe I dreamed it in my state of needing-to-be-asleep. Edit: No, here it is.

 

But look at us go, being all deconstructionist or whathaveyou.