Lord of the Rings

[Forens 0]

well plotwise yeah,ganda;f dies in the fotr right?...iand as far as the who the hbp is it was rather easy for me to find out after i saw the adult cover

 

I think it's difficult to say that Gandalf dies. While it appears that he is dead, we find out later that he actually fights and destroys the Balrog. After that his body is taken and he is "reborn" in a sort as Gandalf the White, rather than Gandalf the Grey. But as far as I can tell in both reading and through the movies, Gandalf never truly dies. This could be because he possesses on of the three elvish rings of power, but again, that's all up to interpretation.

[Whitty 29]

Going on from what Forens said...Gandalf is also a Wizard, and I don't believe they can acutally die. (tho I could be wrong, I'm trying to remember what my sister has told me). Ok well, I mean, I think they can die...just..well...yeah. Like Elves. So Gandalf never really dies. Ever.

 

Oh, but with the "no one dies on the counsil of Elrond"...Borimir (spelling is off, sory) dies, and he was there. So ha.

 

 

And as far as Harry Potter goes.....my sister read it, and now my mom is reading it. So I haven't been able to yet. And thankfully, I don't know any spoilers, well, other than someone dies now, but that's almost to be expected. But I do my best to read it soon and fast.

[Sivart Reborn 7]

Nobody died IN the council. Nobody died while in Rivendell. Boromir died on Amon Hen. If those on the council that died: Boromir, Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Gloin.

Gandalf did die. He returned to life, it directly says "returns to life, lies in a trance." You gotta leave life (die) to return to it.

[Kaitlin 22]

If I remember correctly, wasn't Gandalf a Paladin? I'm not sure if they can die, per se, or just leave this world for another.

[Sivart Reborn 7]

Paladin? Nope. Gandalf's real name was Olorin though...

 

Nope, he was Maiar. To die in Tolkien's universe was to be sent to the Halls of Awaiting, where only a few have ever been released. Only then, with the permission of Eru Iluvatar(aka, Father of All).

If Gandalf couldn't die, neither could the Balrog, both were of the Maiar.

 

I got a huge stash of Tolkien stuff, so if you have a question... ask away.

[Kaitlin 22]

Thanks, Travis! You really know your LotR.

 

But, it's true then that Gandalf couldn't truly die. Hm.

[Whitty 29]

I think Nimue's met her match....

[Sivart Reborn 7]

As for Gandalf dying, in a nutshell, with all intentions of the author, Gandalf could die. As close as any Maiar could die, anyway.

 

Proof of which is hard if you aren't hardcore Tolkienist.

 

Most of it will probably make no sense to you, sorry!

 

The Valar (reference in both the books and movies slightly) were the enemies of Morgoth (remember, Balrog of Morgoth) and Morgoth was the master of Sauron (our current dark lord).

Morgoth was one of the Valar.

Maiar were the Valar's underlings.

 

Maiar in Lotr and their masters:

Gandalf: The Valar

Saruman: The Valar, Sauron, Himself, Wormtongue's knife

Radagast: The Valar (book only)

Balrog: Morgoth

Sauron: Morgoth

 

Power-wise:

Sauron was by far the most powerful at full strength.(with the Ring he was twice as bad)

Gandalf/Saruman: Equal in the author's eyes. Gandalf having the Greater wisdom. Saruman having more "power" at the start. As Gandalf the White, he takes Saruman's Title (the White), and replaces him as Chief Wizard (the Valar's little force on Middle Earth, Including the following: Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Alatar, Pallando)(These last two are not seen in either book or movie)

Radagast: A lesser Wizard.

Balrog: One of Seven. Some of Morgoth's most deadly sevants. Behind only certain dragons (I am sure most of you don't know which) and Sauron himself.

 

 

A Maiar's death isn't normally tied to a body. (Gandalf, if not restrained by the orders of the Valar, could have made himself any body form he wished, a woman, one that looked like Galad, or one that looked like Gil-Galad, Same for all of the Maiar save Sauron and the Balrog, whose evil eventually tied them to a form) In this we see that Sauron never "dies", but loses all his power when the Ring is destroyed. Becoming harmless and voiceless. Same with Saruman, not dying. Same for the Balrog. All of them were forbidden the Halls of Awaiting. "Death" was an eternal wandering for them. Gandalf, since he stayed true to his task, could be given a true "death." He returned with not more power given, but allowed.

 

Last time full power Maiar came to Middle Earth to fight, (those similer to Gandalf/Saruman in power), they came very close to a "Breaking of the World" bit. To imagine the constraint on a Wizard's true power, walk around in a heavy chicken suit in sub-zero weather. Gandalf the White got a temperature of zero and got to take off the hat.

Sauron had no constraints other than:

A: Most of his power he had put into the Ring

B: Without the Ring, he could no longer have a physical body

 

There... I give you a summary of Gandalf's "death" circumstances and power.

[Whitty 29]

Wow.....I think I got most of that. How many times have you read The Silmarilion (yeah, prolly buctcherd that)?

[Sivart Reborn 7]

Erm.... Twice. The first time I didn't get anything, second time I comprehended everything perfectly. (I read it in a month, very slowly too :wink: )

Lotr: Five (two weeks)

TH: Seven (two days)

UT: Once (I don't know)

HoME: Never

Various Tolkien fan sites: Dozens (I skim for info, not chat)

Doing personal research: When I am at home during the school year. (five hours a day)

 

Tolkien's Biograhpy: Once

[Whitty 29]

Uh....I got LotR...but not the rest....lol...wanna spell them all out for us not so Tolkien savvy peeps?

[Sivart Reborn 7]

TH/The Hobbit

UT/Unfinished Tales

HoME/ Histories of Middle Earth

 

 

And those above are only listing cover-to-cover.

When I need something to do I usually read a random chapter out of the Silmarllion, or the Return of the King.

[Whitty 29]

Ah. thanks. I read the Hobbit once and LotR once. I started the Silmarllion but didn't get far. My sister's read a at least twice, maybe more, and a few others or something, so I got a lot of info from her. heh. Maybe one day i'll read LotR again.

[Sivart Reborn 7]

Ah, I don't blame you. The Simarlillion is not much of a fun read unless you really like his work. He never truly finished it.

 

Oh, Gandalf's name means "Elf with a magic staff."

It's old Norse, actually meaning "Elvish wright with a magic wand," and was a Dwarf's name in a myth.

[Cerendrallion 32]

I just about ploughed through LOTR ...