Theory about conversion to a darkfriend by force (SPOILERS)

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

I took the liberty of creating a different thread in voicing this theory, for the sake of not revealing possible spoilers in another thread.

 

The other thread, entitled "Will these issues be resolved?", asked if we would see anyone converted to a darkfriend against his or her wishes. I believe this may have already happened.

 

 

 

POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe in the possibility that Mazrim Taim has been converted to a darkfriend against his wishes. We are already quite certain that he is a darkfriend if not a Forsaken, and the events at the end of KoD solidify those suspicions. Recall the events taking place in the Stone of Tear back in the beginning of TSR. Egwene and Nynaeve are interrogating Joiya and Amico, the Black Sisters, about what the other members of the Black Ajah are up to. Joiya reveals that Liandrin has taken an active interest in freeing the Saldaean false dragon from the Red Ajah clutches, due to his immense ability in saidin, which is, as she believes, a rival to that of Rand Al'Thor himself.

 

Let us consider for a moment that key members of the Red Ajah have revealed themselves Black, most notably Galina Casban, the Highest of the Red Ajah before her captivity by the Wise One Therava. It is my conjecture, as far-fetched as it may seem, that a high-ranking Black sister issued the order to free Mazrim Taim, faciliated by Galina's authority as the commandant of the Reds, with an all-too-common Aes Sedai hook along with his release. An offer would be made to Taim to join the Dark One's minions with a promise of power, especially after the prospect of Rand's defeat at or before Tarmon Gaidon. Should he have accepted, it would have fallen perfectly into the Dark One's plan of sowing chaos across the land. If he had refused, well, he would have been in no position to refuse, and hence he could be converted to a darkfriend easily. More easily than Logain or any other channeler in the South, because Saldaea is a borderland and a much easier source for 13 myrddraal than anywhere else South.

 

Why Mazrim Taim? What would make him a prime candidate for conversion, if he was not already a darkfriend? For one thing, he is extremely strong in saidin, on a level with Rand Al'Thor and thus the Forsaken. Taking advantage of his amnesty, he would work his way into his graces, perhaps ending up with more than he bargained for -- control of Rand's new army of male channelers. Moreover, he is given the gift of Traveling, which enables him to search for people far and wide, anyone who might have an interest in serving the DO. Those loyal to Mazrim Taim attend his private lessons and possibly swear to the DO, creating, in effect, the saidin-wielding counterpart of the White Tower's Black Ajah. Additionally, we have some evidence to suggest that he is well in league with Forsaken, including Moridin and very likely Sammael, and not surprisingly, this role as a leader of channelling darkfriends would almost necessitate direct collusion with the Forsaken. (Remember Alviarin)

 

In short, a man of this much strength in the Power and of this much infamy could not be left to his own devices, not when the Red Ajah, headed by a Black sister, had him in its grip. If he did not serve the interests of the DO, then he would be made to, plain and simple. The same might have been done for Logain, but of course Logain was gentled before Rand, the true Dragon, was revealed, and since he escaped before it was discovered that gentling could be healed, he is a free agent.

[Marie 73]

I've never thought of that, but seems possible. It makes sense from the Black Ajah's viewpoint to have a male channeler on their side.

 

I can't recall, exactly, how you convert against someone's will?

[Ishmael Moridin 0]

Good theory 45,is a strong possibility.

 

To convert someone against their wish to the dark takes 13 channelers channeling through 13 myrdraal.

[jan 14]

Wow... you've really been thinking about this, haven't you?! Welcome to Moiraine's World by the way. How about putting in something about yourself in a brand new thread in Chatterbox so we can judge for yourself if you're insane enough?!

[Fenix 0]

Hello from me. I haven't been around for quite while

It is really possible. However, I think that he was a Darkfriend from the beginning or became a darkfriend after he found out that he was able to channel. Ok, here it goes. You find out that you can channel. This means that you are going to die in an awfull way, killing everybody around you. OR you're the Dragon Reborn... The person who is suppose to change everything, bring a new age, kill the Dark one. Yeah, it sounds wierd, you to be the DR but think that this might be your only hope for survival, the last stroll that might give you hope to live. So you start hoping really hard that you are the DR and try to proove it somehow. From here, I see two directions of thinking. First. I think that Rand was the first one to think that Saidin can be cleansed. This might mean, that Mazrim never thought of it. So having everything said so far, if you start thinking that you are the DR, and don't ever consider Saidin to be cleansed, you would think 'oh then, even if I'm DR and bring a New Age and have to face the DO, I would still die in an awfull way, like the Kinslayer did... ... unless I join the Dark One, because he should have a clue of me not dying in an awfull way' and walla (i don't know how this is spelled ) Here is how you might become a Darkfriend and how Mazrim could have become, before to be prooved that he is not the DR. Second direction. You do what you do, gathering armies and all that, and suddenly some guy named Rand Al'Thor prooves you wrong and that he is the DR. Which means that you definetly are going to die in an awfull way... ... unless, the creator of the taint does not know a way to get around it. After all the male Forsaken are still alive, although they might be locked somewhere. And walla, again you become a Darkfriend. I think that this is what happened to Mazrim. If I think about it, by your theory he should have been given a choice - die or become Darkfriend. But I think that if he was a 'Lightfriend' he would definetly die and if he considers wheter to join, he would still go through this thoughts, which would mean that this is what would make him a darkfriend without having to be converted...

 

Dunno, just my point of view.

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

Admittedly I have thought about the angle to which you are referring. The one which says that Mazrim Taim basically followed the path of the Forsaken, seeking out protection from the taint in exchange for serving the DO. I do not doubt this possibility. There are many reasons why a male channeler, and a powerful one at that, would decide to become a darkfriend, and I am positive this is one of the strongest motives.

 

With your first direction of thinking, I agree that Mazrim Taim never put much stock into the thought of cleansing the taint on saidin. But the problem arises when trying to consider his origins of thought. If he was a lightfriend, he would do what he could to stay alive, maybe convincing himself he was the DR, so that he could have a glimmer of hope that his ability/infirmity would do some good.

 

What I am saying is that:

 

1) If he was not a darkfriend from the beginning (before declaring himself the DR),

 

AND

 

2) The Black Ajah was responsible for his release from the Reds,

 

Then there lies a high possibility that he was converted against his will.

 

Also, I was trying to insinuate that if the above were true, he wouldn't have a choice. True, they might have said "Swear to the DO or die", and he might have refused in spite of that, but I can't believe that they would let someone that strong in the Power and who would put that much of a thorn in the Light's cause just go free.

 

Bottom line: I'm not discounting the likelihood that he went over to the Shadow of his own accord. That is very, very possible. What I am saying is that if there is anyone who would be the most strategically-placed darkfriend in Randland, a pawn for the Shadow who in their eyes must fulfill their bidding at all costs, even if he had to be coerced, it would be Mazrim Taim, for the following reasons:

 

1) He has major popularity as a false dragon (which we have seen has aided the recruitment of other wielders of saidin and possible darkfriends)

 

2) There is evidence to suggest he might be as powerful or even more so than Rand al'Thor (prophecies don't suggest that Rand/LTT will be the most powerful -- so far it's just been taken for granted).

 

Such an ace-in-the-hole would be too good for the Shadow to pass up.

[Fenix 0]

I see your point clearly, I'm not saying it's wrong or something like that. It is actually really, really likely.

It might be true, it might not. I'm just discussing other possibilities.

 

I think that he was captured by mistake. I mean, that he was a darkfriend and that he was captured by lightfriends and then released by dark one's. I have to admit that I read the book long ago, last year, so I'm not sure who exactly captured him but I don't think that all of them were Darkfriends. If there was only one that had to be tricked, that would be enough.

Maybe just the plans of the red's DF went wrong and they released him.

 

With your first direction of thinking, I agree that Mazrim Taim never put much stock into the thought of cleansing the taint on saidin. But the problem arises when trying to consider his origins of thought. If he was a lightfriend, he would do what he could to stay alive, maybe convincing himself he was the DR, so that he could have a glimmer of hope that his ability/infirmity would do some good.

 

Yeah, this is where the second direction comes from.

 

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

Gotcha. It's going to be interesting to see what exactly is the story behind this guy.

 

I think one thing is certain -- Taim and the Black Tower is a GIANT ticking timebomb for Rand al'Thor and the Lightfriends.

 

I think they are going to play a big role in Tarmon Gaidon, and, because of Min's viewings, I don't think they will be able to be dismantled without the help of Logain Ablar.

[Ishmael Moridin 0]

I expect the black tower to split into two factions, one under Taim which will fight for the dark and one under logain which will fight against the dark side.

[TeWuicah 0]

I expect the black tower to split into two factions, one under Taim which will fight for the dark and one under logain which will fight against the dark side.

 

I agree with this viewpoint.

 

It seemed to me Mazrim Taim could be Demandred. It's not impossible, unless I'm missing something. I haven't read the first books in a while, but wasn't it so that Taim appeared somewhat the same time as Aginor and Balthamel? If so, it's possible that he took the role of a deliberately false Dragon to create chaos. The Red sisters who captured him could have easily been Black in truth and just sent to be a diversion, so no one would actually send sisters to capture him. Go hiding for a while, fake an escape and there you go.

 

If you're wondering what made me think of such an obscure theory, well, the epilogue of the Knife of Dreams. Two things, specifically: His lounging in a huge chair in a genuine palace, and the "old saying". As I recall, it's extremely Demandred-like to build a huge palace and lounge in a throne. And so far I only remember the Forsaken saying that exact "old saying" - maybe that command wasn't given exactly like that to regular Darkfriends. His two hundred or so, in exchange, I thought might be forced to be Darkfriends, or at least some of them. After all, he must trust them to be around two hundred of them all the time, and he has even entrusted the "old saying" to them.

[Ekho 52]

Taim is not Demandred, or so RJ says, and while I do agree that it is possible that Taim was converted against his will, I simply think he went to the dark side to get protection against the taint

[Ishmael Moridin 0]

Yep, I agree. He knows about the "Let the lord of Chaos rule" phrase because his master demandred told it to him. His faction of 200 or so ashaman will be the new dreadlords.

[TeWuicah 0]

Very interesting. If RJ said that, then it must be true. And in that case, it's very possible that Taim and maybe some of his "students" have forcibly become darkfriends.

[Ekho 52]

It makes no sense that only some of the students would be forced to become darkfriends, therefore I think that taim's students became darkfriends of their own free will

[Marie 73]

I'm sure some of them are more recent darkfriends; Taim and others promising them great rewards, etc.