What Moiraine chose (Spoilers)

[Kaitlin 22]

Now I forget what we were talking about. Don't worry about it.

[jan 14]

*decides to wing it* Er... global warming and carbon footprints in Randland?

[Cerendrallion 32]

Oh dear. I don't have a CLUE who Colvalere is.

[Asmodean82 0]

They explain waaayyyy back in EotW that men from Emond's Field have a soft spot for harming women. A lot of guys do actually (in real life).

 

Sure it's politically incorrect but when it comes to these matters a lot of guys go subconscious cave man defend the fire bullshit. It's a wiring issue. Rand may even be wrong but it's not a condescending thing. He's just wrestling with his sense of goodness and duty. If he had his way (as is impressed upon in the earlier stories) he wouldn't hurt anyone. But while time changes him a few threads to his innocence remain.

[Iris 0]

They explain waaayyyy back in EotW that men from Emond's Field have a soft spot for harming women. A lot of guys do actually (in real life).

 

Sure it's politically incorrect but when it comes to these matters a lot of guys go subconscious cave man defend the fire bullshit. It's a wiring issue. Rand may even be wrong but it's not a condescending thing. He's just wrestling with his sense of goodness and duty. If he had his way (as is impressed upon in the earlier stories) he wouldn't hurt anyone. But while time changes him a few threads to his innocence remain.

 

i totally jive with what you're saying Asmo. personally i have no aversion to chivalry and i dont find it condascending. i expect chivalrous/defensive behavior from my own Warder and would be more than put off if i didn't get it =) i actually enjoyed it about Rand (and still do with Lan and Mat and the others) but I'm just a little concerned over it marring Rand's judgment as a world leader.

 

laura you dont know who colavaere is! *sigh*

 

katie, even if we've talked it into forgetfulness i'm at least glad i got that delicious cookie!

[Asmodean82 0]

Hehe, I agree there. When he couldn't bring himself to do anything but defend against Lanfear. Ummm one of my very favorite parts in the whole saga. Everyone was at their most awesomeness.

 

And most of all it cemented Moiraine as the character we all love so much. I loved her before that, but it was a moment that clarified that she never had anything but Rands best interest at heart. So much so that she was willing to die for it.

 

She was the one truly loyal to him and understood there were works greater than them both. A moment of silence for her sacrifice and her much awaited return!

[Iris 0]

*moment*

[Kaitlin 22]

*decides to wing it* Er... global warming and carbon footprints in Randland?

 

Yes, that sounds right.

 

Oh dear. I don't have a CLUE who Colvalere is.

 

She was the older noblewoman in Cairhien that tried to get Rand to sleep with all of the young Cairhien ladies of Colavaere's choosing. She hung herself in her rooms later on due to some Game of Housing gone bad.

 

I keep having to look up how to spell her name. Those Cairhienin and their many vowels!

 

edit: I figured out what I wanted to say about chivalry. Don't take it personally, Asmo. I still <3 our Gleeman! This is something that has bugged for a while now though. Hmm, it turned into a long rant so I'll stick spoiler tags around it too.

 

 

Asmo, not hurting a woman because women have been traditionally very hurt by men is not the same thing as not acting in self defense because a person, who happens to be a woman, is a murderer who is currently trying to attack your companions and yourself with the intent of murdering everyone (or making you join her and probably murder people).

 

I believe it's fine not to want to hurt people for the sake of peace. It's not very peaceful to control, though. And a lot of what chivalry did was part and parcel of controlling one half of humans for the benefit of the other half.

 

What bothers me about chivalry is not that men hold doors open for me sometimes or pull out their chair. Stuff like that. I take it as just a form of politeness no matter what their motivation is. I hold doors, split bills, stand up for people who are being bullied if I can, and other kinds of things sometimes because I was raised to be polite. Sometimes they're women and sometimes they're men. Most often I try to be the most polite toward the elderly or little kids, just cause it seems right to me. What bugs the crap out of me is when men refuse to go through doors that I hold open.

 

I was talking to Bug about this the other day. We agreed it happens to every woman sometimes. I guess it shows how many ignorant guys there are though! The worst ones are the ones that come over to me and hold the door while I'm holding it, usually in front of me. Sometimes there's a wall behind me so I have to go under their arms. It puts me in a "less-than-him" position because I have to either be trapped against the wall or walk under his arm. Think about a guy doing that to another guy and how awkward it would look. The one walking under would have to get way too close to the other one's body.

 

Or, if a guy that I date won't let me do things that could "get me hurt". That could be whatever he decides is dangerous. That is the problem. It's effectively treating me like a child instead of a grown ass adult that can change a damn tire on her own. Or fix a leaky faucet. Or put up shelves. Or carry around a friggin hammer. Or whatever.

 

/end rant!

 

 

So that is why the Rand not hurting women due to chivalry thing bugs me!

[Iris 0]

who is Bug?

 

edit: touching on what Katie said, I would have to say that there are some forms of chivalry (if you could call them that) that can be condescending. personally just not the sort of chivalry that i receive, but then again if you're married to someone they generally try to avoid doing the things you dislike anyways but in public weird stuff can happen. it usually doesn't happen to me by virtue of the fact that i'm usually out with a man any way, but i see where you're coming from K.

[Asmodean82 0]

You didn't hurt my feelings. I think you clarified your thought very well, and I largely agree with it. I don't think anyone should try to demean another. When I think of chivalry I think more in terms of your earlier points of treating people well.

 

Rand's flaw is more then once pointed out to him by almost every woman he encounters at one point or another.

 

Damn this is a good debate, I need to think more on it.

 

Who is Bug?

[Olivia 26]

I think Bug is one of Jan's nicknames.

[jan 14]

*raises hand sheepishly* Yes, that's me. I'm Bug. I think Vertex game me that nickname. For some reason "Jan the Bug" makes a lot of sense to him. (Damn it, Katie, I am gonna have to kill you! )

 

But you summed it up so brilliantly that I'll have to let you live. Here...

[Cerendrallion 32]

*anecdote*

 

This debate about chivalry and all its implications reminds me of one of my tutes with crazy Dr McHugh, who, when I'd written an essay about chivalry in something or other, claimed my opinion made me sound like 'a dykey lesbian crossed with a bluestocking'.

 

Sorry. Deviation, there, but it sprung to mind.

[Olivia 26]

Wow, Laura. O_O I hope you gave that Dr a suitable retort or reported him/her or something.

[Cerendrallion 32]

Wow, Laura. O_O I hope you gave that Dr a suitable retort or reported him/her or something.

 

I was sort of stunned, so I stupidly let it pass. She was utterly mad, and had problems of her own - did eventually report her when she pretended she couldn't understand me because of my accent, however.