[Split] Mesaana and the Split of the Tower

[Olivia 26]

I can see Mesaana (sorry, I cannot spell her name) do it rather than Moggy. Mesaana needs to do something big before the end of series and this could be her moment.

 

Mesaana is the correct spelling. And I agree with you, so far she hasn't done much except manipulate the Black Ajah and confuse us as to who she really is. (I still vote she killed Tsutama Rath and stole her identity!)

[Kaitlin 22]

She successfully split apart the White Tower right before TG. If that's your idea of not much I'd hate to see what you expect something really big to be.

 

Also, she hasn't been killed yet, or to our knowledge messed up her plan in any way. She's been an excellent Forsaken sowing the seeds of disruption and chaos... much like Graendal has been.

[Olivia 26]

It was the resurgence of the Dragon Reborn and the plan made twenty years ago to hide him, coupled with Elaida's powerhunger that split the White Tower.

 

And as for plans failing, didn't Shaidar Haran show up in one of the recent books and punish her for something?

 

All of the Forsaken (except Asmodean I suppose) have been sowing the seeds of disruption, she did it through the Black Ajah's control of Elaida. But in light of the others, she hasn't visibly done much that we know of.

[Ekho 52]

I think Mesaana had something to do with the splitting of the tower, but I agree there were other factors,

Im sure shes done other things we don't know about as well

[Sivart Reborn 7]

Uh... not all the Forsaken are that active.

Moridin's done what since his reincarnation? Act weird. He didn't even show to the cleansing of the Saidin. And he's Nae'blis.

At least Messena's out there looking like she's doing something.

[Kaitlin 22]

It was the resurgence of the Dragon Reborn and the plan made twenty years ago to hide him, coupled with Elaida's powerhunger that split the White Tower.

 

And as for plans failing, didn't Shaidar Haran show up in one of the recent books and punish her for something?

 

All of the Forsaken (except Asmodean I suppose) have been sowing the seeds of disruption, she did it through the Black Ajah's control of Elaida. But in light of the others, she hasn't visibly done much that we know of.

 

Mesaana is in charge of the Black Ajah. The Black Ajah caused the split in the Tower. Elaida was a pawn that they used. Mesaana caused the split of the White Tower. That is crystal clear.

 

Those two that I mentioned have done the best job so far. It's evident because they aren't visible. The ones who have become visible have usually messed up. Do you really want to argue about this?

[Tosh 8]

Moridin's done what since his reincarnation? Act weird. He didn't even show to the cleansing of the Saidin. And he's Nae'blis.

He has done noting we KNOW of. Maybe hes doing such a good job of it and keeping it hidden that not even RJ knows what hes up to.

[Cerendrallion 32]

Mesaana is in charge of the Black Ajah. The Black Ajah caused the split in the Tower. Elaida was a pawn that they used. Mesaana caused the split of the White Tower. That is crystal clear.

 

Those two that I mentioned have done the best job so far. It's evident because they aren't visible. The ones who have become visible have usually messed up. Do you really want to argue about this?

 

Actually, I thought that Elaida split the Tower way before the Mesaana plotline was introduced. Alviarin certainly helped Elaida, but it was all down to Elaida's own pettiness bitterness against Siuan and Moiraine...coupled with the fear of the Dragon and the the usual Red Ajah bias.

 

To be honest, I always thought that RJ threw Mesaana into the Tower simply to have something to do with her...rather than blame the destruction of the entire Tower on her scheming.

 

Its not exactly 'arguing'...just voicing an alternate perception of what happened.

[Kaitlin 22]

Which is fine. But whether or not RJ thought of it ahead of time it seems like it was his intent to have had Messy in charge of the Black Ajah later on in the books. Elaida wanted to do something, and who did she end up getting involved with but the head of the Black Ajah? Messy was set free at some point, and we've seen her take up in the WT. Ishy probably directed them before, but since Lanfear had already been free since at least the beginning of Book Two, and she was located among the deepest of the Forsaken bound, Messy had to have been set free either at the same time, or earlier than Lanfear.

 

That would have given her ample time to gather information on what she needed to see her plan (or Ishy's) through.

 

Elaida was used by the Black Ajah.

[Olivia 26]

Both of you are making some good points, and neither is exactly incorrect. I agree with the thought that Mesaa wasn't simply thrown into the Tower by RJ to give her something to do. He's too much of a sneaky bastard to do that.

 

I also agree with Elaida being used by the Black Ajah, but I think that mostly came later (once she was Amyrlin), and the actual strength of will to depose Siuan and become Amyrlin herself had been there for decades, and was finally set off by world events concerning the Dragon Reborn. I LOOKED IT UP! The scene is as follows in TSR chapter 1: (Elaida's POV) She notices suspicious activities lately with Siuan and "Elmindreda", but she has no proof of anything serious, "Not yet" she says. While she is considering that perhaps Siuan had something to do with Moiraine's invovlement with al'Thor (she is one of few who remembers that Moiraine and Siuan were close during their training), and Min is also a close link to them (Siuan even later thinks that Min could solidify any suspicions against her) THEN Alviarin shows up and strikes up conversation with Elaida. But please note! Elaida has already decided that she has to stop Siuan from "destroying the Tower" and once she chats with Alvi and discovers that she might be willing to help, Elaida's confidence in her plan solidifies. So...later on in the book (chapter 47 The Truth of a Viewing) she holds a Sitting, most of the Hall agrees to depose Siuan, and then Elaida takes a handful of sisters to do the actual arrest. The sisters are: Alviarin, Joline, Shemerin, Danelle, and others from every Ajah but the Blue.

 

Another question this raises is: If some think Mesaana was behind deposing Siuan...does that mean she was one of the sisters with Elaida at that time when she arrested Siuan? Or was she working in the backround through Alviarin?

 

Another side note that favors the Black Ajah being behind Siuan's deposing is chapter Deceptions. Earlier in the book, Min (disguised as Elmindreda) goes to see the Amyrlin, and is escorted by a novice called Sahra. Sahra gets sent off the island to a nearby farm as punishment for, technically, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. While there she is visited by an Aes Sedai who is neither named nor described nor given any distinguishable accent. The Aes Sedai tortures the poor girl and demands to know everything about Elmindreda. ---- We know the sister was Black/Forsaken because of the torture and murder, and we know she has great interest in Elmindreda (and it's not the boots). AND we know that Elmindreda's presence was the little spark that led Elaida to her conclusion that Siuan had some sinister plot involving the people from Emond's Field. Put these together and we can either surmise that Elaida's coup had something to do with the Black Ajah, OR that the Black also knew Min had a relation to Rand and therefore could somehow help them kill him or something.

 

Sorry for the length, feel free to tear my evidence apart if anyone disagrees <3

[Kaitlin 22]

Yes, we've read the books too. It doesn't matter in this discussion whether Elaida had wanted to depose Siuan or not. Well, we can say that it matters as much as the Black Ajah saw a way to control events. Ally was the leader of the Black Ajah after all. Ishy and then Messy gave orders to the leader of the Black Ajah. Without Ally's support Elaida would never have gained the total support she needed to depose Siuan (and the way that she did it was completely sneaky - it was done without a trial in which Siuan was present... the Black Ajah gave her the backing so they could get it done that way). The Dark One's aim in taking over the world is to spread chaos. It's not that he wants one faction to win over the other. He wants to control who he can and completely fracture the forces of the Light, so that they will not have their act together enough to fight him at TG.

 

The fact that the Black Ajah was behind Siuan's deposing has been proven... er, a couple of years ago? I dunno! But, I'm pretty sure it's documented in wotmania, or theoryland, because I remember reading the thread. If you want proof that people talked about it before I guess I can find it.

 

*edited* Here are also a couple of links about Messy from wotmania talking about how she is undervalued. I don't even really like the woman all that much! But, she's been much more useful that a lot of the other Forsaken... her and Graenny both. I never link to other boards when they have discussions, but this time I have.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=12110

 

http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=464

 

Messy just wants Ally to listen to her and no other Forsaken. She says this in ACoS. I don't have access to that book, as my dad has it, but I found this summary from http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/index.html

 

(This is not from the book. )Alviarin Freidhen POV - Just after leaving Elaida's quarters, she heads back to her own quarters. On the way she passes Danelle, a dreamy Brown, Berisha, a Gray, Kera, a Green, and Norine Dovarna, a White who wanted to be Keeper. Alviarin has killed before. She is afraid that Elaida's Foretelling might reveal her. She arrives at her apartment that overlooks the front of the White Tower from a hundred feet up. She keeps a lot of Leane Sharif's stuff as a reminder of the price of failure. She does not believe stilled women ever survive long. Mesaana appears, disguised and hiding her ability to channel; she appears tall and has a voice of silver chimes. It is clear to Alviarin that Mesaana must be masquerading as someone else in the White Tower.8 She somehow listened in on their conversation. Other Forsaken had come to Alviarin. Ishamael years ago made her head the Black Ajah. Later, Lanfear, Graendal visited the White Tower. Be'lal yanked her out of sleep to some strange place.9 Some of Elaida's orders were to kidnap the king of Illian and queen of Saldaea, offer kingship of Tear to High Lord Darlin. Laughing at Elaida's political games Mesaana says, "You children almost match the ajah at times."10 Mesaana wants Elaida to increase the Tar Valon army. Alviarin became head of the Black Ajah after Ishamael killed her predecessor, Jarna Malari of the Gray Ajah, after learning what she started.11 It did not end until two years later after the death of Sierin Vayu. Jarna had the Amyrlin Tamra Ospenya questioned and killed. Alviarin does not know how Sierin died and wonders if Elaida had a hand in it because the Black Ajah did not.12 A Great Council of Thirteen heads the Black Ajah. Alviarin worries about sending sisters to the Black Tower. Mesaana does not seem to care, but Alviarin will send no Black Ajah to go with Toveine for the attack. Mesaana warns Alviarin to serve only her, not Semirhage, Demandred or Graendal.13 Alviarin thinks she can hardly credit what she just learned.14 Mesaana teaches Alviarin how to Travel.

 

I do remember reading that, that Messy said she only wants Ally to listen to her.

 

And here is this all nicely put! I found it, but this is not what I read on theoryland.

 

We know very little substantial about the Black Ajah, but we have several hints, and we have some very interesting notions on its development.

 

First, we know that the Black Ajah has great influence among the Tower Aes Sedai. Besides Alviarin and Galina, Elaida has assessed that Alviarin controls or greatly influences six Sitters, as many as herself. This doesn't imply that as many as one third of the TAS is Black Ajah, but it gives away an organisational change, and a change of purpose of the Black Ajah. This is reinforced by Galina's and Katerine's dialogue in the [LoC, The First Message]. The Black Ajah is, at least in Tar Valon, centralising and changing its organisation from an infiltration-centered, cell-based one to one that can take decisive, concerted actions. This process made the Coup possible, in giving the BA enough strength to support Elaida's claims, and now continues in order to strengthen its influence even more.

 

Second, this reshaping of their organisation could not, and can not, be made without active Forsaken support. It does not imply that the Blacks are aware of Mesaana's presence in the Tower, or even that they know the commands they get comes from a Forsaken. It does imply, even though it is uncertain, that the Forsaken are trying to take direct command of the White Tower. It does imply that the White Tower Coup had support from the Forsaken.

 

But we lack the most crucial item: what is the DO's and the Forsaken's (or more specifically the DO's and Mesaana's) goals with the Black Ajah? Given their influence and strength as we know of them, at least uses are possible:

 

*Paralyse the White Tower through prolonging the conflict between Salidar and the Tower. But this would best be done among the SAS, not among the TAS, and we know of only one influential BA (Delana) among them.

*More subtle, change allegiance to Egwene, thus destroying Elaida's position. In the process, try to gain such positions among the SAS that they can cripple their work, and in such a way that all other TAS are discredited. This is rather unlikely, IMO. I can see Ishamael favouring this way, but no other Forsaken, even though it seems that Mesaana could use it.

*Full break with the Tower, effectively becoming a true Dreadlord force. This is probably a last resort, since it would not only end the Tower Conflict, it would provide Egwene and the SAS, as well as Rand, with a clear enemy.

 

The Black Ajah's main weakness is command and control. There seems to have been a struggle for control between Galina and Alviarin, and as long as the Forsaken control things from behind, no real authority exists.

Click here to see the page.

[Tosh 8]

Jesus christ thats a long post. In Alviarins PoV in the prologue to knife of dreams alviarin says (well thinks actually).

Break the White tower from within, she had been ordered. Plant discord and chaos in every corner of the tower. Part of her had felt pain at that command, part of her still did, yet her greater loyalty was to the Great Lord.

Elaida herself had made the first break in the Tower, but she had shattered half of it past mending.

[Kaitlin 22]

*nods* Elaida just unfortunately was at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong agenda.

[Ekho 52]

I think the tower could have been split without Elaida, but it would be far more difficult

[Kaitlin 22]

*nods* It was like she handed them exactly what they wanted.