Spanking is for real!!! Not just in WOT!!!

[Iris 0]

AHH! So I got this crazy thing on Facebook called "The Fifteen Creepiest Vintage Ads of All Time" and look what one of them was! (oh the irony after our thread about Siuan/Gareth!) *feels mega disturbed*

(by the way if anyone wants to see the other fourteen, i suppose i can post them in the Random section or something...)

[Olivia 26]

Yeah, domestic abuse like spanking/beating the wife in order to "keep her in line" was sadly acceptable back in the day in America, even just a few decades ago. And of course other cultures still do that. =/ RJ is just a relic of his time.

[Iris 0]

spanking??? dude people all over the world still beat the crap out of their wives() but isn't spanking for kids? i just never thought of spanking in that way...

[Olivia 26]

but isn't spanking for kids? i just never thought of spanking in that way...

 

That's part of the humiliation aspect of it, that she's being treated as a child while she is being beaten. You really never heard of adults spanking each other, even after reading about all the WoTlanders who do it?

[jan 14]

*sigh* so problematic I don't even want to start on it -- whether WoT or not.

 

@Libby: yeah, I'd like to see the rest of the ads if it's possible to post a link.

[Iris 0]

no Olivia i have never heard of adults getting spanking in an abusive way until WOT. just the other reason adults spank ive always only thought of wife-beating as like face-slapping and pushing and punching and stuff like that.

 

jan, can you ever imagine an auntie getting a spanking??? i can't!!

 

ok i will post them (they are so mega creepy!!)

[Brynefan 2]

I'd like Siuan and Gareth to spank in the kinky way, not as punishment of childish behavior. *sigh* But that is not the case. I'll probably be disappointed whatever happens to them and I'm quite disturbed by this, even though Siuan often starts the "abuse". Getting a boot in your head can't be looked upon as innocent either.

 

I can definitely see spanking as the step between mental breakdown and physical abuse. Not that I know anything about this area >.<

[Tosh 8]

The woman in the picture looks pretty happy though don't you think?

 

Maybe RJ chose to have him spank her because a slap would make the scene far too heavy, too serious for a Randland relationship. Seems to fit in with how he writes these things.

[jan 14]

@Tosh: Do you mean to say that a slap is more "mainstream" abusive than a spanking, which is what RJ was avoiding?

 

Also, it's all right as long as it remains a game and both parties are consenting participants. When the obviously stronger person asserts his power is when it starts getting problematic. I suppose that's the difference between kinky spanking and abusive spanking. The humiliation aspect is nothing more than an assertion of power too.

[Tosh 8]

@Tosh: Do you mean to say that a slap is more "mainstream" abusive than a spanking, which is what RJ was avoiding?

I'm saying that while spanking can be quite serious it is often at least depicted as something less serious than a slap, something almost lighthearted. And with its history as a widely accepted tool in child rearing and the near stereotypical sexual aspect of it, this is hardly strange.

 

A slap however is not only just as humiliating, but targets a more sensitive and spiritually significant part of the body. A man slapping a woman is also an iconic, powerful image of abuse.

 

I don't remember the scene where Bryne spanks Siuan but I figure it and the rest of the scenes where they have at eachother are about as close as Jordan got to slapstick (a name that is pretty ironic in this instance) and I don't think it would have been doable with the dear general slapping his maid across the face. At least not if taken in the sense of a stronger part abusing a weak.

 

.. So yeah, thats pretty much wat I'm saying.

 

This post is probably going to sound disjointed and weak to me tomorrow, but hopefully I'll show myself mercy.

[Iris 0]

I agree with Tosh, which is why I was so bothered when Thom slapped Elayne in the face! Even when I think of hitting kids (i dont hit mine, by the way!), a slap in the face is much more degrading than a spank on the butt.

 

I find both disturbing in their own right. Spanking another adult to me seems odd because it's so child-oriented (its humiliating but the physical damage is not so detrimental). I really didn't think such a thing existed. A slap on the face is like striking the most honorable/noble part of the body and somehow when a man does it to a woman it seems very scary to me--very degrading and physically damaging. But like when a woman slaps a man somehow its not! (?) (many incidents in the book of this!). Weird, girls can face-slap guys and guys can spank girls in Randland but the opposite can't happen. Well, maybe Tylin can turn Mat over her knee....

 

by the way, marie can you please change my "if" to "is" in the title of this thread. its so bothering me!

[Kaitlin 22]

I think the difference between a woman slapping someone and a man slapping a woman is the power dynamic. Men as a whole are giving more of a societal privilege and allowance to be violent. "Men" as in the idea of masculinity. There are a lot of good guys. And we have a bunch on this board.

 

The spanking thing is something that always makes me think of bdsm/kinky stuff. But in RJ's era it was used less in a consenting way and more of a humiliating power dynamic way that was totally unacceptable. :/ It's amazing how acceptable domestic abuse was back then. It was the thing that everybody knew happened but no one mentioned. It was an elephant in the room, I guess.

 

The Thom thing bothered me a lot. He was supposed to be fatherly toward her too during that part, but he wasn't really her father. That made it weirder. RJ has a lot of spanking with Faile and Perrin to, which was very disturbing to me when I found out that Faile was as young as she was.

 

Tosh, I agree with you and it was very well said. Better than I'm able to say! I agree with a lot of what you all have been talking about in this thread.

[Iris 0]

 

The Thom thing bothered me a lot. He was supposed to be fatherly toward her too during that part, but he wasn't really her father.

 

what doubly disturbed me about that was that right after he slapped her and she started crying he embraced her and was stroking her hair and trying to comfort her. it seemed so Battered Wife Syndrome-ish.

[jan 14]

@Tosh: *nod* thanks for explaining and you made lots of sense, don't worry.

 

@Kate: It's true about what you say regarding acceptability of domestic abuse. Men being "given" the power by society to keep their wives and other womenfolk "in line". This situation also reminds me of a scene in Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series when Jamie (otherwise a decent man who respects his wife and also follows her lead quite often) justifies beating his wife since she had humiliated him earlier and ended up putting their whole group in danger. So the only way she can be "justly" punished if he beats her.

 

Needless to say, the explanation was exceedingly problematic. I'm not saying the author (and also RJ) are unaware of the gender dynamics in society or the context in which they are going to be interpreted. (Wow, I'm in a rare positive frame of mind towards RJ's perversions!) Maybe this is exactly how they want readers to react?

 

[EDIT: Corrected the thread title. Is this what you wanted, Libby?]

[Brynefan 2]

I don't remember the scene where Bryne spanks Siuan but I figure it and the rest of the scenes where they have at eachother are about as close as Jordan got to slapstick (a name that is pretty ironic in this instance) and I don't think it would have been doable with the dear general slapping his maid across the face. At least not if taken in the sense of a stronger part abusing a weak.

 

There is no actual scene, but shortly AFTER the first spanking was mentioned Siuan was showing her first signs of attraction to Gareth. o_O (Perverted, I know) At the time for the cat-fight with Nyn in TAR (The Fires of Heaven, To Caemlyn):

 

Siuan had on a gown like those Leane wore, only more sheer than even Leane would ever wear in public, so thin it was hard to tell what color it was. Not the first time she had had that on today, either. What was perking around in the back of the woman's mind?

 

...

 

"And what has you so jittery you can't hold your dress still? ... Maybe it's something I heard last night?"

 

....

 

"I heard you heaved Gareth Bryne's boots at his head when he told you to sit down and polish them properly - he still doesn't know Min does the polishing, does he? - so he turned you upside down and -"

 

Siuan's full-armed slap rung her ears. For an instant she could only stare at the other woman, eyes going wider and wider. With a wordless shriek, she tried to punch Siuan in the eye.

 

...

 

"Still, it might be a good idea not to discuss Gareth Bryne." She gave a start as the worn dress became a gown, red with black-and-gold embroidery around the hem and swooping neckline.

 

These two are violent women. xD Nynaeve really abused the hell out of Lan (well tried to) when she slapped his face over and over again after they reunited. I don't think Siuan would allow Gareth do spank her if she didn't actually - sort of- enjoy it?