The virginal women of WoT

[Kaitlin 22]

There are many virgins as main characters, and most of them are the good guys. Some of this can be explained by the fact that many characters start out as teens, but even among them I can't really think of a character who wasn't introduced in the series as a virgin.

 

Perrin and Rand started out as virgins also (Mat may have been, but I doubt it) but they had a fair number of women show serious interest in them, and Rand has slept with at least three in a short span of time.

 

The women tend to start out as virgins and marry their first lover. Even Berelain is much more 'virtuous' than she presents herself as being.

 

What is the deal with WoT virgins and why did RJ write so many of them?

[Marie 73]

It gets worse as the series goes on. The Kin live as if novices and Accepted, that is to say they avoid even the chance of making babies. You have Alivia who is freaking centuries old who is clueless about sex even in theory.

 

I don't think anyone in the Two Rivers would have slept with Mat back in the day, to be honest, but clearly he got it on pretty quickly once out in the wild. But of course his wife is a virgin.

 

For all we know the only man Moiraine has been with is Siuan.

 

Perhaps I'd feel a little less : about it if we ever encountered a male virgin that wasn't 16.

[Kaitlin 22]

The only slight difference I see with Moiraine is that she already had Siuan before NS started, and mentioned kissing Cormanes. The other women seem to marry the first person (guy) they kiss. Although Moiraine is practically virginal in NS and there's not really a mention of her and other lovers the rest of the series except for Thom.

 

Cadsuane's not squeamish about lovers and she's one of the major characters now. Hmm, there's Myrelle but she's a supporting char. She's sort of the token experienced woman too.

 

Yes, if there were more virginal men it'd be different.

[Marie 73]

Yes and what about Thom! Compared to him Moiraine might as well be a thirteen year old on her first date.

 

And then there is Siuan running away from Bryne like an idiot school girl with a crush. Until Bryne come into the picture Siuan seemed like the type to take a lover and move on when he bored her, but it seems when women fall in love in WoT they become born again virgins.

 

I can understand Nynaeve being a virgin, probably hard for a Wisdom to get laid, but Min? Seriously? No wonder the channeler population is lower than it was in the Age of Legends: women aren't breeding!

[Kaitlin 22]

Yes and what about Thom! Compared to him Moiraine might as well be a thirteen year old on her first date.

 

I know. There is a twenty or thirty year difference! Even when the woman is in her 40s the man has to be way older than her. It wouldn't be a big deal if every relationship wasn't like that. Morgase is the only exception and Tallanvor is barely younger than her. She makes a huge deal out of it!

 

And then there is Siuan running away from Bryne like an idiot school girl with a crush. Until Bryne come into the picture Siuan seemed like the type to take a lover and move on when he bored her, but it seems when women fall in love in WoT they become born again virgins.

 

This is what I forgot to mention before. This bothered me so much about Siuan's characterization.

 

I can understand Nynaeve being a virgin, probably hard for a Wisdom to get laid, but Min? Seriously? No wonder the channeler population is lower than it was in the Age of Legends: women aren't breeding!

 

I know I must have read that Min was a virgin but my mind did not seem to want to accept it. Min was the only exception from the group of girls. I guess she's no exception!

 

It doesn't make sense in a world where there are no (or very few) sexually transmitted diseases and very reliable birth control that all of these women haven't gotten laid before (with the exception of women like Nynaeve or Aes Sedai in AS-hating countries and such). They just can't get any action?

 

As far as the damane go... they are treated like sexless creatures but unless they are chemically or otherwise castrated then damane like Alivia would have some clue about sex. She could be non-sexual herself but she would have an idea about it from living in the damane kennels.

[Marie 73]

Oh but some men do take damane to their beds, as Tuon said to Mat (see! reread time for you! ) But those men are seen as perverts.

 

But if it happens then surely other damane would know about it. Especially a four hundred year old one!

[Kaitlin 22]

I remembered that it was supposed to be disgusting for men to do it but not that they actually did. *looks at books*

 

Some damane have something like pillowfriendships but do they mention them having sex or not? I don't remember. Alivia should know!

[Marie 73]

I'm not sure. It is hard to tell sometimes if RJ means actual sex buddies or just close friends. Truth be told the idea of damane having sex with each other disturbs me. I think it is the leashes.

 

I think for me it is the sheer number of female virgins in the story. The only shining light I can see is horny ass Galina, and Tarna breaking the Red stereotype and sexing some men up on occasion.

[Kaitlin 22]

I don't think RJ understands extremely close female friendships and tends to sexualize them in the way that some men do.

 

Not everything having to do with two women together necessarily has to do with sex, even if both those women only prefer the ladies. Women can have platonic friendships with each other too.

 

I think that's why he blurs close friendships and sexual relationships so consistently anyway.

 

The damane thing... the sex thing is disturbing because they would probably be put into rooms together by their sul'dam. It's another situation where they are treated as animals. :/

[Marie 73]

I wonder if RJ thinks it is simply easier for women to practice sexual abstinence. I just can't get over the Kin doing such a practice, when you consider how many of them there are and how long they live. I somehow doubt menopause gives them any leeway in that regard.

[Olivia 26]

The damane thing... It's another situation where they are treated as animals. :/

 

I think that's why men who take damane to their beds are seen as perverts; it's considered close to bestiality. Damn I hate the Seanchan.

 

I think for me it is the sheer number of female virgins in the story. The only shining light I can see is horny ass Galina, and Tarna breaking the Red stereotype and sexing some men up on occasion.

 

And Tylin. Can't forget the Queen of Cougars. Plus a couple background chars are mentioned as liking the menfolk - but you're both right: the main female cast is overwhelmingly younger, less experienced, and more attractive than their male S.O., a beef I have had with WoT for some time

[jan 14]

For all we know the only man Moiraine has been with is Siuan.

 

But completely agree with the original statement, and we're right back to the same old discussion about gender characterizations in WoT, and how plenty of things appear to be driven from RJ's "perverted" fantasies in matters of sex and sexual relationships.

[Brynefan 2]

You forgot the wrist-thick rods the virginal women seem to stumble upon all the time.

[Brynefan 2]

And then there is Siuan running away from Bryne like an idiot school girl with a crush. Until Bryne come into the picture Siuan seemed like the type to take a lover and move on when he bored her, but it seems when women fall in love in WoT they become born again virgins.

 

I'm excited because of The Gathering Storm obviously. I've just read some Siuan and Gareth stuff in The Fires of Heaven (as I've done many times before) and suddenly saw lots of clues that I have missed before. Siuan really is virginal, as opposed to her wannabe tendencies in New Spring, but I wouldn't blame Bryne as much as her "new looks".

 

The over sexualized chapters in Murandy serve no other point than confronting the characters. That is, Leane, Siuan, Min and Bryne. Leane has fun, Min is just curious and nothing seems to surprise Bryne (obviously). Siuan on the other hand:

 

Siuan gave a start when she realized that some of the men's suggestions were aimed at her. They did not make her angry - she really could not apply them to herself in her own mind - only startled. She was still not used to the changes in herself. That men might find her attractive..."

 

....

 

The sign over the door had an improbably voluptuous woman wearing only her hair, arranged to hide as little as possible, astride on a barebacked horse, and a name that she skipped over as soon as she recognized it.

 

In the next chapter (Bryne's POV) that inn is revealed as "The Good Night's Ride". Then there's the incident with her blushing for having to show her legs, while she didn't have any problem showing them while riding in NS. But that's another matter.

 

Now I think I understand why Siuan repeatedly has thoughts of fear and runs away from Bryne. A quote from chapter one of KoD:

 

No matter what Egwene claimed, she was not in love with Gareth bloody Bryne! She was not! She had too much work in front of her to get caught in that kind of foolishness. That's why you stopped wearing embroidery, I suppose, a small voice whispered in the back of her head. All those pretty things, stuffed into chests because you're afraid. Afraid? Burn her if she was afraid of him or any man!

 

Siuan then proceeds to sabotage Bryne's boots. Probably because she knows it will earn her a spanking later on. *Shakes head* I wonder exactly HOW Siuan came to become attracted to Bryne so fast though. Right when he showed up in Salidar she yelled "You must send him away. Or kill him." I don't know at what point she stopped wearing her prettier dresses either. She wore them well into LoC at least.... perhaps after she was Healed. That makes sense, thinking of her semi-weird scene with Gareth just afterwards, with her breaking down on the floor crying over her dead warder while telling herself she's not in love.

 

I still have a hard time making THIS Siuan be the same person as NS Siuan. Especially with the pillowfriendship! She has changed a lot, but why?

Edited October 27, 2009 by Brynefan

[Olivia 26]

I still have a hard time making THIS Siuan be the same person as NS Siuan. Especially with the pillowfriendship! She has changed a lot, but why?

Because RJ only likes lesbians if they end up with men.