Tension! Between Lan/Moiraine

[Iris 0]

I'm female, so not a dude. I got it from the fact that she wouldn't have minded being seen naked by him. She was interested. [/Quote]

I think that was more her feeling flattered than anything else because obviously she found him attractive. I think if she was into the one night stands Lan would've found in her bed with Ryne at some point before he killed him.

 

See I think the bottom line where we're differing is the idea of how similar Randland is to our's. Personally I think there are many parallels between our world and the one RJ has created in terms of sex, intimacy, marriage, etc. You dont really get to hear many of Moiraine's internal thoughts on this, but you do get to hear it from the other main characters like Rand, Mat, Elayne, Nynaeve, etc. and they seem to have a lot of the same attitudes as we do toward this kinds of things.

 

Obviously sex outside of marriage is normal for them as it is normal here in the Western society and for Greens have multiple warders is normal, but you get sense that women in the other ajahs consider that to be a trait unique to greens so perhaps for them they would'nt be into having multiple men at once.

 

I dont think its off the wall to say that in RJs world one night stands in considered a looseskirt trait. I think aside from a few quirks, like Greens with more than one man, for example, their world is pretty similar to our's.

 

I will check this thread again tonight

[Tosh 8]

It just seems so illogical to hunt down strangers when theres a guy who'd be willing to provide the same thing with you all the time.

Sex with someone who is going to spend the rest of his natural life by your side and can literally feel your emotions is never going to be just a one night stand.

 

The relationship between an Aes Sedai and a Warder is bound to be a complicated one without sex and non-platonic affection. Seriously, I know RJ prefers to be light and fluffy and refrains to delve the depths and intricacies of human emotion all too much so it will never be canonical, but a non-platonic relationship between an Aes Sedai and a warder seems almost destined to go down in flames... And then they're stuck with eachother.

 

And I think thats where recurring sex with your warder is likely to go. It'd be too hard to maintain some sort of perpetual friends with benefits deal.

 

All that trouble to satisfy a purely sexual thirst?

[jan 14]

I'm sorry for having been out all day and missing out this very interesting and very problematic argument! And even though I agree with Moiraine and Kaitlin, I need to pipe up...

 

i'm not trying to project my own value system onto her, but i'm just telling you what i personally gleaned from her personality and description. and i think to a certain extent though they have similar values to ours though, as they do get married and even Rand starts talking about it after he sleeps with Avi.

 

But don't you think you're judging her according to your own value system? We can't really define what's "liberal" or not for Randland, like Moiraine said above, and equating one-night stands as being loose and something else as being prudish, etc. is really nothing more that seeing things from a particular standpoint and closing yourself off to everything else.

 

I'll give you an example: you said, "to a certain extent they have similar values to ours". But from what you say and how you look at it, you and I, for instance, clearly have very different values! So what similar values are these that you mention?

 

As for Mo/Lan, it's more or less clearly pointed out in the books that they haven't had anything going on, and much as I did want it to happen at some point, it's fruitless wishing that it did!

[Kaitlin 22]

I think that was more her feeling flattered than anything else because obviously she found him attractive. I think if she was into the one night stands Lan would've found in her bed with Ryne at some point before he killed him.

 

Well, we don't know one way or the other. However, she liked his flirting a lot and definitely flirted back with him. She was interested in his wanting to see her naked. It wasn't just a passive feeling of being flattered; she was interested in him. Obviously she was with Siuan before and so she wasn't a virgin, but she hadn't yet been out in the world and hadn't been with a guy yet. She was pretty assertive for just newly being sprung from the White Tower and the Palace!

 

Obviously sex outside of marriage is normal for them as it is normal here in the Western society and for Greens have multiple warders is normal, but you get sense that women in the other ajahs consider that to be a trait unique to greens so perhaps for them they would'nt be into having multiple men at once.

 

I dont think its off the wall to say that in RJs world one night stands in considered a looseskirt trait. I think aside from a few quirks, like Greens with more than one man, for example, their world is pretty similar to our's.

 

I will check this thread again tonight

 

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about the world that just does not fit with RJ's writings. There's been no indication that women who've had one night stands are in any way considered looseskirts, and the fact that other Aes Sedai don't all practice polygamy doesn't automatically mean that they are all the way at the other end of the scale either. The fact that there is extremely effective birth control that has been developed points to certain facts. There's not a lot more I can say about it other than that.

[jan 14]

I think sometimes that's the biggest trouble with reading fantasy. We're so wound up in our own narrow worlds that it's difficult to see beyond it. Don't forget how in the original Start Trek series they assumed that in the 23rd century women wouldn't be allowed to command!

[Iris 0]

oh boy we just need Olivia on here and i'll be mauled!

 

As per what you said Tosh, I dont think its bound to go down in flames as Greens are proof of that. I think for Moiraine and Lan, I dont think she ever pretended to married to him. I dont think its clear that they didnt sleep together, its just clear that she didn't feel dedicated to him in wifey kind of way or expected his chastity. But it doesn't mean they would simply satisfy each other sexually. And obviously I think they were emotionally attached to each other. BUt even if they did love each other and did have sex, it doesnt mean that Moiraine wouldnt want or allow him to have sex with other women. I think there could many reasons for that.

 

Jan, I speaking from the perspective of the common modern day American-European value system, as this is where I live the value system I subscribed to the majority of my life. I think value system in Randland is similar to the America-Euro value system so its safe to draw some parallels.

 

Now look at someone like Berelain who was scoffed at for being loose and her behavior is a step up from a one night stand.

 

Dah now I have to go guys!

[Marie 73]

I just need to point out that Berelain isn't a looseskirt, and in fact is a tease. She simply discovered that flirting with men that way helped her keep her tiny (and almost pathetic) country afloat.

[Tosh 8]

I dont think its bound to go down in flames as Greens are proof of that.

It wouldn't happen the way I described in RJ's writings, and I said as much. But in a world where troo luv doesn't conquer all I maintain that it would be an incredibly difficult relantionship.

[Iris 0]

Tosh youre right it would be crazy. I cant imagine what it would be like have any person be able to read all my emotions all the time or to read his. *shivers*

 

Here's my final 2 cents on this whole thing. I think we all have values and experiences that cause us to interpret the same things in different ways, thus we read the exact same thing yet we have completely different points of view. Yay for fiction.

[Kaitlin 22]

You know what... but all of us on this board have different values from each other. I don't think we are all equally reading our own values into RJ's work. Our Fearless Leader, Jan, Tosh, myself, and etc. really don't have just one way of looking at the books.

 

I do not believe in collaring people. But do I think that the leader of Seanchan would start to feel the same way (for the same reasons) about capturing female channelers and chaining them up just because I wouldn't like doing it if I were in her place? I do not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that others here are saying they wouldn't necessarily either. That's a character who has their own motivation and book based worldview.

 

I think this might be a case of not having read the whole series. I won't get into this any more. If anyone else wants to discuss it that is fine, but frankly I'd just be repeating myself, and the books aren't so important as to make me spend this much time debating something which I think has more to do with familiarity with the books. It is no offense though, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the series! I also don't want you to feel that you are being ganged up on.

[Tosh 8]

I was just so thrilled that we were actually having a (moderately) serious conversation after so long and just latched onto something I could comment on.

And now its all over.

[Iris 0]

Tis true I havent read the series, but I've already been hearing about it for 6 years Gaidin 17 has been reading and rereading it since the Wheel has been spinning

 

I know that at face value I might appear to be a person who has clearly demarcated values so its easy to accuse me (which doesn't mean I dont have the ability to attempt to be objective by the way), but from what I gather from the overall tone of the forum and even our thread, you guys are seeing the character and the series from your own set of values as well. To call out something as acceptable or most likely acceptable is not any different than calling it out as unacceptable or most likely unacceptable. Either way it's judging through your own perspective and values. True, we can look at the evidence and try to come to an objective conclusion, but even the evidence is so vague and open to interpretation. This is fiction, so the only way to interpret the language is based on what you're familiar with and you glean from it. Unless you have a hard and fast fact about a character, you have to go by assumption. I dont judge the characters by whether or not I would like to do what they do. The value system I ascribe to is nothing like the WOT or even close to it. I may have liked Moiraine's character because I do like her modesty, but that's why I liked her. I didn't liker her character and then attempt to force it on her. And there are many things she does in the book that dont jive with me at all in reality but I dont deny that she does them or would do them (like sleep with Rand for the sake of the mission).

 

From what I've seen on other WOT sites and what not, there's a large array of theories and attitudes about the series and characters, and I'm can't think that any one would think their view is the essence of neutrality and unbias. I know I haven't read the whole series, but from what I've read from others it doesn't seem like everyone who has read the series ascribes to the views of posters on this thread, so I think everyone seeings with their own flavoring, you guys as well as me. We shall see if that changes after I finish the series, but I doubt it.

 

 

The end I guess (sorry Tosh!)

[Marie 73]

I'm actually not making any real value judgments on Moiraine's sex life or lack thereof. I have no clue if she's had one night stands or not, and don't really care.

 

However, in giving my opinion in this thread I based it on two things mostly:

 

1) She has said that she has never held Lan's heart and that she has never seen Lan as an object to get jealous of. We could argue until the sky is green, but it would be pretty hard to come up with any actual evidence of them being lovers when there is plenty to suggest otherwise.

 

2) Something Tarna Aes Sedai said (thought really) in book 11 that sheds some light on Aes Sedai sex practices (and she's Red Ajah!).

 

Outside of Laura, and maybe Kaitlin, I have yet to met a WoT fan who thought Tarna's reflections were worth discussing because, well, a whole lot of other important things happened in that book. Including drunk Elaida.

 

I think this is the problem. From our (the forum's) perspective it comes across as you simply making inferences based on what you want to see, whereas everyone else is trying to draw on something from the books that specifically refers to these kinds of behaviors. But those incidents are mostly regulated in the later books and only pillow friend obsessed fans seem to even care to remember them.

 

The biggest mistake is comparing them to the West's value system. Instead, if you could just give some quotes to back up your theory, it might be easier to see where you are coming from. The downside is that I am not sure I myself could show my own evidence without going into spoiler territory.

[Iris 0]

I will admit its true I do love the Lan/Mo pairing and I do like to extract possibilities as long as they are not outright negated. I will openly admit to that.

[Olivia 26]

I liked that Tarna bit