Proper English

[Vertex 23]

Why does it have to be "inns" and "taverns" and such things and not simply "hotels" and "bars"?

 

The same thing goes for "The silly game of silly houses"... what's wrong with silly politics? :-p

 

And it isn't as if the word "politics" is modern or could be all clashing. It is ancent greek and latin and everything and was probably all over Europe when we were all fighting with Swords and having lots of little kingdoms who all had to be nice to that time's white tower, the vatican.

 

Same thing with "Bar" and "Hotel". Both words are not new or slangish in anyway... well, they aren't quite as old as politics maybe. Just around 500 years. Well back into the sword fighting era anyway. Still... in fantasy it is almost always tavern or inn.

 

I guess it is the same with "give suck". I mean, why is "nursing" so bad? I guess "give suck" is more graphically pleasing for some... Shame on naughty RJ!

 

I suppose people like to get away from normal everday themes though. And, by altering the language a bit, it makes the content appear slightly more romantic. But is this cheap trick really enough to keep doing it in almost all fantasy?

[Ekho 52]

I think inns and taverns just fit the setting more than hotels and bars

 

Maybe RJ was trying to put a spin on politics by calling it the game of houses

 

And I have no idea about the "give suck phrase"

[jan 14]

"Give suck"?????!!!!!

[Vertex 23]

*giggles* That isnt' WoT? ME thought it was... it is used in some fantasy anyways *nods*

[Marie 73]

I know what you mean, Nik, although hotel and bar doesn't sound very "fantasy", but there are other things that is just silly. It wasn't until later books he even said "make love"! It was all "share so-and-so bed". But what if you are sharing a bed but not naked while doing it? Confusing sets in! Saying "sex" seems so less complicated.

[Olivia 26]

It's not that those words haven't been around long enough, it's just that they weren't the terminology of the time epriod Jordan is aiming at, methinks.

 

Besides, it does sound more fantastical and romantic to use "make love" or "share a bed", and we hear "sex" every day, so it's nice to have a change. Also, the characters in WoT have a very prudish sense of modesty, so they are more lielly to use euphemisms for such things.

[Vertex 23]

It's not that those words haven't been around long enough, it's just that they weren't the terminology of the time epriod Jordan is aiming at, methinks.

 

But they have gunpowder and steam engines, big cities and politics. Eventhough they don't have democracies yet, the target era can't be sooo far back. Me wanted to point out that in the targetted era, words such as "bar" and "hotel" were invented and used.

 

It is very unfantasy, but if you look at those signs in a historical perspecitve, industrialisation is about to start which might eventually lead to people giving up being farmers and starting to move into the cities. Those people would also evantually form a worker class that would help push for democracy. Maybe Rand ends up being killed by the people who wanna rule themselves? He is after all something of a dictator... all powerfull and law making and knows he is right just like Sadam or Hitler or anyone.

 

Unless the era is story time, and you get to choose away things, or adds things at your own liking. And it all doesn't have to reflect anykind of reality that ever existed.... You just pick consepts such as sword fighting, magic, great unexplainable evil, glorious kings and beautiful queens, and taverns and inns. That makes WoT seem more like a fairy tale though...

 

And in the end, perhaps that's what fantasy is? Really long fairy tales with added soap... and without an underlaying moral message.

 

Umm... me drifted from the topic! The point is that "Bar" and "Hotel", should probably belong in WoT if you assume that the targeted era is just pre-industrialisation.

 

"Sex" is in the meaning of coitus is however kinda new... so I'm sorry Marie but they probably wouldn't say that. The F-word isn't though... *giggles just a bit* So I guess they could use that.

[Marie 73]

Well not sex, but at least make love/making love. I'm sorry, but they are not as prudish as they pretend.

[Ekho 52]

But you can't directly link WoT to any time period because its fantasy and while some aspects are similiar, others are different

[Cerendrallion 32]

I like how WoT uses old-timey words. Adds a bit of other-worldliness to it. I mean, I'm sorry Niklas (*puppy eyes*) but wouldn't 'Moiraine and Lan staying at a hotel' just sound so wrong?

 

I don't like fantasy that has too much association with our world. Looses the whole fantasy element.

[Ekho 52]

I agree, hotal and bar would sound so wrong

[Olivia 26]

And in the end, perhaps that's what fantasy is? Really long fairy tales with added soap... and without an underlaying moral message.

 

Uh...yea Niklas, that IS what fantasy is.

You are supposed to use non-mainstream words and terms, because it's a DIFFERENT world, not our world. If we wanted to read about our world and use our slang terms, why would we read about swords and magic and medeival politics? The different terms give it the feel of another world that you could lose reality in. I don't see how you could have missed the entire point of fantasy.

[Vertex 23]

Uh...yea Niklas, that IS what fantasy is.

You are supposed to use non-mainstream words and terms, because it's a DIFFERENT world, not our world. If we wanted to read about our world and use our slang terms, why would we read about swords and magic and medeival politics? The different terms give it the feel of another world that you could lose reality in. I don't see how you could have missed the entire point of fantasy.

 

Me must have confused fantasy with literature then! Fairytales tradtionally is a mouth-to-mouth medium... in which you want to listen to someone who tells a story in an intersted way, unlike literature that is written with as much elegance and inuative language as possible.

[Marie 73]

Uh...yea Niklas, that IS what fantasy is.

You are supposed to use non-mainstream words and terms, because it's a DIFFERENT world, not our world. If we wanted to read about our world and use our slang terms, why would we read about swords and magic and medieval politics? The different terms give it the feel of another world that you could lose reality in. I don't see how you could have missed the entire point of fantasy.

 

Oooh...no. Modern fantasy is in fact science-fiction. But that's a different topic.

Also, you are not supposed to use non-mainstream words and terms. You use words that fit, just like with any other genre. A bar really isn't the same thing as a tavern, and hotel is more modern than an inn. So it isn't that it's non-mainstream or trying to make you lose yourself in another world, it's just using vocabulary that fits better.

 

In true fantasy (pre-Tolkien) there are no rules, so although readers might prefer certain things to be in place or practice in the "fantasy" they read, that's their own desires and not some arbitrary restrictions writers actually need to adhere to to be considered "fantasy".

[Vertex 23]

it's just using vocabulary that fits better.

 

But if you invent a whole world,... wouldn't the people in it use different vocabularies? I mean, at least city people should go all "Hey lets go to the bar and get wasted!" while country side people might go all "Gee, in my village we only have one tavern... but actually they dont' serve alcoholic breverage there. Mum thinks it is sinful, you see."