Theory: Mo and Lan Make Love in book 5

[Iris 0]

Brynefan, I like your comment about the gleeman's tale quote. Very insightful!

[Olivia 26]

By the way! How the heck does Merean know they're "pillow friends"? Remember when she tells Cadsuane that? How in the world

 

I don't think it was a big secret that they were a couple. ;D Merean seemed pretty unimpressed when she found them nekkid together in Siuan's bed after a night of Elaida's rough punishments (ooh that sounded dirty). The other Accepted act like they know it too. Besides, I don't think they would have felt the need to hide it; pillow-friendships are seen as normal (if short-term) for novices/Accepted, and several Aes Sedai are even pretty frank about which asses they used to tap (that hilarious Elaida scene in KoD comes to mind). Moiraine knew everyone knew about her and Siuan, but she got so upset at Merean for actually talking directly about it to Cadsuane. Notice that she says, IIRC, "There were things done in public that were talked about, and things done in private that were definitely not talked about" - she's not ashamed that they knew she was with a woman; she's embarrassed because her sex life - gay or straight - is the topic of discussion.

 

And I agree that Moiraine and Siuan aren't "real" lesbians, because hey, this was written by RJ. The same guy who writes about women being spanked by their husbands, and powerful women being put on leashes and forced to do menial labor. The same dude who thinks almost every relationship should involve the male being older, taller, and more sexually experienced. His "gay" characters are only lesbians for a short time, they want men in the long run. Pretty much the only "real" lesbian couple we see much of are

Galina, who is evil, and Therava, who is also evil (and a dominatrix).

[Mild spoiler for the latter half of the series.]

 

And nice catch, Brynefan! I never would have spotted that! I wonder if that was intentional of RJ.

[Iris 0]

I didn't click the spoiler cause I'm only still on Book 5, but my husband did vaguely tell me about the Elaida thing. I guess it the P.F. thing must be pretty common in the Tower, it makes sense. It totally slipped by me that they were naked in the bed after Elaida's ass whooping them. I'll have to pay more attention to detail when I reread new Spring, which I will need to do for healing purposes after the end of Book 5

[Kaitlin 22]

Well, there is also bisexuality. There are levels of bi tendencies, and supposedly the human race is much more bi than it claims to be currently. I don't mean in a stereotypical college freshman way either.

 

In his world it is not remarkable for women to have female lovers. Not all of them have male ones as well but some do. There wouldn't be the need for labels, but that wouldn't make the sexual natures of the characters always totally straight. Even if you're completely straight but very horny it's not likely you would enjoy many years of pillowfriending with someone from your same gender.

 

Horniness doesn't suddenly make certain genitals attractive where they would not have been before and I think that's where I'm coming from with all of this... S/M were at least together a year and still liked getting it on around the time they were raised. In our world that makes them bi. In their world it's not even particularly thought of as being odd one way or the other and that's pretty much it.

 

Siuan and Moiraine could have had sex with each other just because they wanted each other and not necessarily because they were without men... and *still* have feelings for crusty old men later on without any of their relationships being any less valid.

 

That doesn't mean I love S/M now though. Marie had to kind of convince me to love Thom (I loved him as a character but not for Mo due to his oldness. Now it helps to imagine that he went prematurely grey *clears throat*). I remember the pillowfriendness of the olden days. RJ either wrote Siuan crappily later on or Siuan is a crappy ex-lover/friend. I could just be biased. Actually I do like Siuan otherwise. But that doesn't mean I think at least Moiraine had real feelings for Siuan before. I don't know. Pillowfriend issues are complicated and dramatic! *huffs!*

 

...I wrote that Mo/Lan story and I would have written a more partnerly one too... only I am horribly lazy and never managed it. There are other Mo/Lan ones on there though and I think many people have considered it!

[Marie 73]

I admit to my own bias in the Mo/Siuan regard. I'm a straight girl who once had a girlfriend but even while dating her I considered myself straight. Anyway that's my big issue with how RJ wrote them: Moiraine is all checking out guys in NS but never girls (I like to pretend her and Amalisa did more than drink tea, but there is no proof of course), and we all know about Siuan and her footman. I like the boys but that doesn't mean my mind doesn't wander.

 

Or the way they act with each other. I remember when NS came out and how the readership was all like "wait...what....wait...wait...what?!" with the surprise!buttsecks attack RJ threw in there with the pillow friend comment. And then the NS novel came out and it just made it worse (since a lot of people didn't want to believe pillow friends meant..well what it means).

 

I feel as if NS Moiraine/Siuan could be said to have had this great wonderful thing, and yet the way he wrote the older versions makes their younger selves seem more like the typical four year lesbian. I guess what I am wildly winding down towards is that it is as if RJ devalued that friendship to the point where it is nothing more than friends with benefits.

[Kaitlin 22]

I respect your perspective. I can see what you mean about a lot of it, and I agree that he wasn't the most realistic. God, the Aiel, Rand and his wimmins, the Red Ajah being evil manhating women lovers, Elayne with Thera during that one part, Fades, and so on. That plus a huge amount of stuff.

 

I wasn't surprised about what pillowfriends meant, but I think that it's a little easier for me to recognize hints about same sex relationships in books because I'm not straight and I'm used to having to search out evidence of relationships that would be like mine.

 

There is winnowing out, which you kind of have to do as a gltbqi person and there's sort of fangirling unrealistic relationships... *coughHPfanficcough* which isn't really meant to be harmful in and of itself but can make gay/lesbian relationships seem silly. /pointless rambling

 

That aside, lots of authors just do not write about human relationships fairly or accurately. They will hint at same sex stuff but not give it the same authenticity. RJ doesn't really do that either but a part of me is conflicted. He has given non-straight relationships a little more authenticity than any other fantasy author I've read. Maybe that makes me want to defend what he's written. I like that Cadsuane does not know why the Sea Folk and the Cairhienin women do not want their relationship known. I also liked Mo and Siuan in NS even though they were a bit idealistic. I liked hints of their past relationship in the first books... but I do not like that RJ had to make their new love interests both old men (Thom much much older and Gareth just looking that way with newly stilled Siuan).

 

I see the comments about men versus none about other women a bit differently I guess. To me it seems like since women being together isn't a big deal in randland and they were in fact together without either one being uninterested in each other's sexes, well that is the evidence that they wouldn't be opposed to being with other women in the future. When they thought about men they were together. That says that they don't just like women. Their thoughts about the attractiveness of other women were limited to the two of them, but they were together at the time. We don't get a lot of their PoVs later on to see how they feel about women then.

 

I like the hinting about Amalisa too but it is just that.

[Marie 73]

See, I used to view Mo/Siuan differently, but now that I almost, not 100% but almost, hate Siuan, I cannot for the life of me see their relationship in any sort of healthy/nice/romantic way (those three don't really go together...whatever).

 

And after years of the pillow friend party/orgy on MW I have became rather, how do you say, defensive of "straight" Moiraine. It takes all kinds, and if Moiraine really was just experimenting I'm ok with that. If she has a secret harem of buxom blonds, I'm ok with that too.

 

Oh, and it wasn't the term itself that caused issues, it was the term as applied to Moiraine/Siuan (it happened on here too) people had problems with. Right now I might be all about defending Moiraine's right to be a plain ol' straight girl, but back then I was the defender of her right to get kinky with Siuan and a candle. Ah good times. Actually no, I really hated him coiming in and saying that.

[Kaitlin 22]

Whatever is Momo's thing is Momo's thing. But if she were with... say Myrelle... I would also not be opposed. *hums*

[Marie 73]

Hey that is cheating

[Kaitlin 22]

 

She did know where to tickle.

[Marie 73]

So does Lan!

 

We have so destroyed Olivia the II's thread.

[Kaitlin 22]

D: Sorry, Olivia II! You're new and your thread got the best drama of any threads lately. >: )

 

Lan! *grumbles* Lan. Well so he does.

[jan 14]

Wow, there's so much stuff going on here that I want to talk about, because it's Mo/Lan/Siuan (eek! not a threesome! ) and about RJ being a dirty old man! Anyway, I'll just cut and paste an IM chat Kate and I were having on this:

 

me: You know... regarding Mo/Lan... I think having the bond might make it harder for them to have sex than easier.

 

Kate: how so?

 

me: Too-close-for-comfort type of difficult.

They know a bit too much about each other.

 

Kate: that's the brother/sister thing I was talking about. I don't mean literally that but just an odd closeness

 

me: Oh but that doesn't mean they don't or might not have had sexual feelings for each other. I think they have had and they have explored it and found it inconvenient.

 

me: At least, that's what seems feasible to me. That said, it's RJ's world, and we know that he was just a kinky old man. WoT is neither gay friendly nor gender friendly, as someone pointed out in that discussion. He was more interested in getting his kicks from women being spanked, and jumping into bed with each other, and younger women falling for older men, and men with lots of lovers, and that sort of typically heterosexual male stuff!

 

Kate: maybe they did. I don't believe they are like nyn and lan or have ever had that kind of relationship though

 

Kate: what makes me uncomfortable about the siuan/mo thing is that at least for part of the books it was a valid relationship. RJ did better than he usually does with gay friendly stuff and by passing it off as just his pervy way of having two college age women hook up it diminishes some of that more realistic stuff he really did write.

 

me: I think he has a typically blinkered view. It's okay for two women to play with each other, but "real women are really only intersted in men, and real men are only the older ones..."

(can I copy and paste this in the thread?...)

 

[Deleted inane stuff...]

 

Kate: I don't totally get that from him, the real women etc. thing. I mean, I do get that but not all of it for all characters

It is like sometimes he tried to be more englightened about some things but lots of times his prejudicial views got in the way.

 

me: Well, I don't know. I find him fairly traditional in his depiction of women.

 

Kate: Yes, so do I. But not totally.

 

me: You know that's my pet peeve against fantasy -- gender stereotypes, rather, the patriarchal stereotype.

 

Kate: In the later books he is incredibly so, but not as much in the earlier.

Actually, NS is one of the later. Maybe that is why Moiraine and Siuan seem so uberly girlish and silly. Though I like NS a lot more than his other later books.

Yes, it's mine too. That's why I don't finish most of the fantasy stuff I pick up. :/

 

me: Yeah, I like NS better too. As for them being idealistic then. Well, they were really young and one is that way!

 

Kate: Yes, but they were also just... I don't know how to say it but more the typical randland woman. I like moiraine the best because she confronts stereotypes.

 

me: Admittedly, it was "better" then, but I still don't think it's good enough. Okay, fine, you read the way women are presented in GRR Martin and you want to garland RJ and make a statue of him and worship him! But it's all relative.

 

Kate: I do not want to garland him. Maybe I come across as defending him too much because that's just the way I'm angling it at the moment. His depictions really bother me in a lot of ways. I responded to his books as a kid because I thought somebody understood, and then when I realized I was mistaken and as he got worse about it I was a pissed teenager. Now I just care mostly about people's reactions to his stuff more than his stuff alone. And I continue to read to find out about Moiraine.

I also like Thom's character. But why did he have to make him so old? I don't like that at all. I like Lan too.

It's not the age I have anything against, but like you said, the only valid guy is the old one for RJ.

=========

 

Anyway, after this we started discussing gender issues in fiction and went a bit off topic, so I won't bore anyone any more.

[Brynefan 2]

All the fun happens while I'm asleep! Cursed CET!

 

Yes, the thread is totally hijacked in MW style. That's why I love this place

 

I used to think of Thom as near 70 until just recently when I thought about it a bit more. He's probably 60-65, isn't he? He was still in quite good shape when he was with Morgase and that wasn't too long ago.

 

Still, that makes him 20-25 years older than Moiraine and Gareth looks 25 years older than Siuan. Yuk indeed!

 

I don't like Siuan's change of looks at all. I want her to be her old self again - with her old looks. That's how I still think of her most of the time.

[Iris 0]

You are all more than welcome to hijack my thread!

 

You know I'm only on book 5, but I actually like it that Mo is with Thom and Suian with Gareth. I actually found them both attractive. It's evident from how RJ wrote Thom that despite his age, he always attracted younger women, which implied he was very youthful in personality and rather dashing. I haven't read too much into Gareth but I find him very charming and am looking forward to more of his relationship with Suian.

 

That's just me though! Just because they're old doesn't mean they're crusty