Aes Sedai: Everybody's Whipping Boy? (spoilers for all books)

[Kaitlin 22]

Why did RJ make Aes Sedai worse and worse in the series? I want to know why he found it necessary to make them the crap of the channeling world.

 

There are a lot of examples of them behaving in a whiny and unprofessional way. It doesn't make sense that he would build them up and then show them to be worse than that manager guy in Office Space. He did not go through any tests to prove his steeliness, fortitude, and intelligence. But, these women did.

 

Also, everyone treats the AS like toejam on toast. I don't like their organization like I like the Kin but still.

[Marie 73]

The Wise Ones are all hating on AS these days, then you have the Sea Folk, and of course both sides of the Tower split make the other look stupid and petty. I feel like since the departure of Moiraine, and with the exception of Cadsuane, it's almost as if he is going out of his way to make Aes Sedai look stupid and childish.

 

I can understand to a point what he was trying to do: show that they are not invincible, all knowing, etc. But my problem is the Aiel; there doesn't seem to be any way known to man to bring them down a peg or two, but there seems to be an endless supply of ways to do the same with Aes Sedai.

[Kaitlin 22]

*nods* I know what you mean.

 

Speaking of childish and stupid, what group of educated, tried and tested women would faint all over the place (and vomit everywhere) like these women did during the meeting with Egwene? And those are the group of Aes Sedai RJ supposedly wrote as being the good guys.

 

He didn't treat any groups anywhere near the same way. How come he did it?

[Cerendrallion 32]

I can understand to a point what he was trying to do: show that they are not invincible, all knowing, etc. But my problem is the Aiel; there doesn't seem to be any way known to man to bring them down a peg or two, but there seems to be an endless supply of ways to do the same with Aes Sedai.

 

The only example I can think of of the Aiel being brought down any peg or two is the example of the Shaido and their cruelty/foolishness (to show perhaps that the Aiel aren't all-noble, all-knowing, etc) and their eventual defeat. By then again, RJ lets the Shaido pretty much get away with it - they escape back to the Waste with their prisoners.

 

I don't know why, but I agree with the point made that RJ increasingly portrays the Aes Sedai as the whipping boys of the Wotworld. And honestly it pains me! I find the Tower intrigue and the relationships between Aes Sedai the most interesting bits of the books, though I have a soft spot for the kin because they're lovely.

[Olivia 26]

It doesn't make sense that he would build them up and then show them to be worse than that manager guy in Office Space

 

RJ/Lumbergh: "Uh, yeahhhh, I didn't really want strong female characters who don't need men, so we're gonna have to go ahead and make 'em into weak and stupid bitches, mmmkay? Thaaaanks." *walks off with his coffee mug*

[Iris 0]

RJ/Lumbergh: "Uh, yeahhhh, I didn't really want strong female characters who don't need men, so we're gonna have to go ahead and make 'em into weak and stupid bitches, mmmkay? Thaaaanks." *walks off with his coffee mug*

 

considering we're online and you had to type it, that was an excellent impression!

 

edit: this may just be me, but from the vibe i get about Aiel vs Aes Sedai (and just Aes Sedai and how RJ wrote them throughout the series), i get the impression that RJ is trying insinuate that the Aes Sedai are overly political, like too much in Daes Daemar and going behind each others backs and too cunning, etc, and its as if he's trying to say that such behavior will later come back to haunt them as thus their "downfall". i think with Aiel he always tries to make it seem like they're more straightforward and they have "better" ways of ranking they're Wise Ones. I think he attempts to portray the Wise Ones as more honest in their dealings with each other and having more praiseworthy characteristics. i suppose i'm just stating what i interpreted, but that's what the impression i'm getting as I see the Aes Sedai flounder. sort of a "what goes around comes around" sort of vibe.

 

double edit: overall i like the Aiel but one thing that bothers me about them is that they are very ethnocentric. i'd like see that get taken down a couple notches---like at some point them seeing that the "Aiel way" is not always the best way.

[Ekho 52]

The view I always got is that the first few books, or so, were trying to put Aes Sedai on a pedestal. Then for the rest of the series it was all about finding out how many ways the Aes Sedai could be pulled off said pedestal.

I'm all for making characters more human but I think that could have been done in a much better way.

[jan 14]

Even in the first few books where the AS were put on a pedestal so to speak, their powers and their wielding of it was mired in distrust and suspicion. It makes me think it was all a set-up right from the start.

[Iris 0]

but they know they're sneaky. i think when people respect them it comes from the fact that they can use the Power, but the mistrust comes from how they want to manipulate and control. they themselves know that they invented Daes Daemar.

 

come on guys, do we like it or do we dislike it that they are manipulative and shady? i think we can't make up our minds i think i like it, but i don't know why. i just don't like it when they get too arrogant.

[Cerendrallion 32]

I like that they're so manipulative and shady. What pains me is when they often can't back it up...

[Asmodean82 0]

I always enjoyed Moiraines Machinations because they were meant to help Rand. The others usually did what they did for personal gain. That's of course very human, but I found them to be more and more unpleasant as the story progressed.

 

The few like Cadsuane understand and fight for a greater good. Them I enjoy. In some ways I think Verin is the freakiest and by extension coolest manipulator. We STILL don't quiet know her angle. Though she's been very helpful to Rand, even to the extent that she does... questionable things. Can't wait for that thread to tie up.

[Kaitlin 22]

The few like Cadsuane understand and fight for a greater good. Them I enjoy. In some ways I think Verin is the freakiest and by extension coolest manipulator. We STILL don't quiet know her angle. Though she's been very helpful to Rand, even to the extent that she does... questionable things. Can't wait for that thread to tie up.

 

Me either. Verin is badass.

 

I was trying to think of a guy who's as awesome as Cad, Verin, or Mo and in a similar way. Asmo, Thom and hmmm... I'm drawing a blank. Thom hasn't being as manipulative and Game of Housey as he's been built up to be. It's not as written about anyway. There's Juilin and his Tarabon escapades.

[Asmodean82 0]

DEMANDRED! The only male Forsaken still surviving (in his original body). That dude's been up to some scary stuff, and like Verin, we still don't really know what. So stoked for him to finally reveal some of his plans. Certainly has something to do with Taim and the Asha'man. Though I get there are other bits we've only had foreshadowed but still don't know.

 

On a different note, I was rereading Fires of Heaven and I find I really wish Asmodean was kept alive a bit longer... such as fabulous character. (Of course I'm bias)

[Kaitlin 22]

Yess, Demandred. I hope he's been up to something good!

[Tosh 8]

Almost forgot about that guy.

With the risk of going completely spoilerific, what was he up to last we saw him? Hell, in which book did we hear from him last?