[Split] Religion

[Tosh 8]

I like this Dawkins person, hes smart.

Even if god is only a myth he/she/it is the biggest and most important myth of all. All myths are important since they represent a very important part of us humans. Hope. God for example represents the hope that we are part of something, we have a meaning, whatevever twisted fucking shit happens in our life it all has a meaning and a purpose. And even if we totaly screw up and ruin everything we will still have a chance to make it all right because it was all part of gods plan and he forgives you. And the great thing about myths is that when enough people believe in it it doesn't matter if it really is true because we think so and act accordingly. With religion for example, since we believe that god, allah, whatever, is real we follow the rules and regulations that we believe they set up. And we become better people.

And most importantly it gives us hope and help to get through life.

 

But the problem with religion is that it is not only a belief anymore. It is a religion and therefore something people can exploit. A religion doesn't excist in the back of peoples minds and hearts. A religion is something ruled, created, and changed by a group of powerfull humans. And when something turns into such a dictatorship it is going to get corrupted until it is no longer the thought of the masses but stern laws to burden the people.

 

I do believe in god and afterlife because..well. Because it is a beautifull thing to believe in and it gives me hope. But I do not believe in a religion created by a group of people 2000 years ago. They had an entirely different view if this belief than I do, and that doesn't mean that I am wrong and they are right. Every person should create their own belief and not be a part of the masses just because "everybody" else is. The sad thing though is that these things will always be a part of us, we will not create a belief that is entirely our own with free though because the thoughts of these 2000 years dead men are burnt into our backbones and all our actions however small is affected by this. Sorry for possible typos.

<3

[Olivia 26]

I'm very opinionated on religion, though I don't think this is the right thread to discuss it. Maybe a moderator could split the thread? Or just spank me for straying off-topic.

(This may be confusing, but I'm trying hard to explain what I mean, and I'm not trying to convert anyone or slam faiths, just express myself.)

 

Anyways, I think religion is a way of controlling society for our own good. Thousands of years ago (5,000 I think), when civilization first started, people needed some set of rules to ensure that their society would continue to exist and that we wouldn't fall back into small groups of animals that lived day by day gathering food and hunting with rocks. So, think of early society in primitive terms, just people with complex survival instincts that have decided to settle in one area.

 

For instance, take murder. Murder is considered wrong in every single culture and religion ever to exist. Why? Because killing people takes memebers away from a society, which makes the group have trouble functioning if it loses too many members. So, not killing a fellow human is a group survival instinct.

But what about killing that is accepted. Again, that is a complex version of basic survival instinct. We are allowed to kill someone who is harming us, directly or indirectly. (Indirectly being killing someone of a different nationality or faith, because you fear that they will affect your culture for the worse or take away what you enjoy). Same with the norms of a group of people being against stealing - it takes away your chances of living long and being happy.

 

Another point, which Tosh mentioned, is hope. All religions have provided their people with a reason to exist. We NEED to know that there are good things after death, that there is an afterlife with all those that died before us, or that we will be reborn and live again.

 

Why? Because if we didn't have a certainty of an afterlife or a rebirth, we would panic. Fall down and scream, because no matter what we do, we will die and never come back out of that nothingness of death that lies only a few decades ahead.

 

People would think "well if my existence will end in 50 years, what's the point of having children and making my society go on? Or working? Or doing anything I don't want? Why don't I just go out, live for the moment, steal what I want, kill who I want, and do whatever meets my whims." And you CANNOT have a society that can function with that state of mind in everyone. There would be no mass food production for everyone (who would waste their short lives farming?) No way to get food to people (who would drive a cart or a car when they could be doing something mroe interesting?) Who would police the society, who would be responsible for medicinal purposes or health, or making clothing and buildings and educating people?

 

So, since for a long long time, people have not been able to understand sociology, we have needed some word or assurance that supposedly is from "someone greater than humanity", something that knows more than we do and will protect us if we follow its rules; very much like children and parent. Until the day we find out for sure what really happens after death, what for sure lies beyond, we will need our "parent". When we understand why we need religion and when humanity is responsible enough and wise enough to live without our "parent", we will no longer need blind faith.

 

Sorry for the length, I'm just really distracted. *hides*

[Olivia 26]

I'd like to apologize for that whole unecessary rant, and for posting it in an inappropriate thread, I was just very bored and very tired and wanting a distraction. Don't pay it any heed if you aren't interested. O_0;

[Marie 73]

You don't need to say sorry! I'll reply...when I'm not being lazy.

[Ekho 52]

Some really interesting points. I personnally believe that most ancient religions were set up to explain why things happen, for example people didn't know why the sun set so they set up a story about the sun god riding a chariot across the sky, like in the ancient greek religion. However I think the main reason for the growing amount of athiests is that we have science to explain everything and no longer need religion. just my opinion...hope it makes sense:P

[jan 14]

As one of my friends said once, God made science, so there!

 

Anyway, the trouble with humans is we take things too far! The concept of religion is all very fine - heck, it's good to have something to believe in - but it's trouble when people start interpreting it to their own advantage. This current veil issue in England, for example - I wonder where it's going; and I was just thinking some time ago how caste-based violence in India seems to be on the rise...

 

Just for the record, I'm agnostic, so if anyone wants to convince me about the existence (or not) of god, etc., feel free!

[Tosh 8]

I've met god. He was rude. I was sitting quietly in my sofa when abruptly the pillow I have my foot on turns into a being made entirely of blinding light. The creature then walks up to me and slaps me on the face, then he tell me the meaning of life. But after the long speech about the meaning of life he conjures up one of those flash things from men in black and then after making me forget everything that has happened he jumps in a car with Will Smith and drives away through the interdimensional gateway that has appeared in my coffee mug.

 

Its true....Honest to god..

[Tosh 8]

How I remember all this is an entirely different story.

[Kaitlin 22]

As one of my friends said once, God made science, so there!

 

Anyway, the trouble with humans is we take things too far! The concept of religion is all very fine - heck, it's good to have something to believe in - but it's trouble when people start interpreting it to their own advantage. This current veil issue in England, for example - I wonder where it's going; and I was just thinking some time ago how caste-based violence in India seems to be on the rise...

 

Just for the record, I'm agnostic, so if anyone wants to convince me about the existence (or not) of god, etc., feel free!

 

I think I agree with Jan here. Religion is all well and good until it is used in the way described by Buggie.

 

A big problem is that we are not perfect, and so we mess up very much by assuming that by following the technical traditions of religion we are somehow better than others in this religious way. Nothing is perfect, except for kittens that are red. *nods humbly*

[Marie 73]

Anyways, I think religion is a way of controlling society for our own good.

 

I think religion was to help explain the world around them, and later on to explain why certain people could do certain things but others couldn't. Which is a form of control. I don't think it's the same control you're speaking of, because if that was the case, government wouldn't have been invented.

 

For instance, take murder. Murder is considered wrong in every single culture and religion ever to exist. Why? Because killing people takes memebers away from a society, which makes the group have trouble functioning if it loses too many members. So, not killing a fellow human is a group survival instinct.

 

But what counts as murder depends on the culture/religion. It's also instinct for men to be the only sperm donor, so you could say it's in their blood to kill competion.

 

But what about killing that is accepted. Again, that is a complex version of basic survival instinct. We are allowed to kill someone who is harming us, directly or indirectly. (Indirectly being killing someone of a different nationality or faith, because you fear that they will affect your culture for the worse or take away what you enjoy).

 

I don't think any faith says you can kill because people scare you. They say you can kill someone of a different faith/society because they are somehow evil. Big difference.

 

Same with the norms of a group of people being against stealing - it takes away your chances of living long and being happy.

 

And yet a number of faiths condone the stealing of human liberty.

 

 

Why? Because if we didn't have a certainty of an afterlife or a rebirth, we would panic. Fall down and scream, because no matter what we do, we will die and never come back out of that nothingness of death that lies only a few decades ahead.

 

People do that anyway.

 

People would think "well if my existence will end in 50 years, what's the point of having children and making my society go on? Or working? Or doing anything I don't want? Why don't I just go out, live for the moment, steal what I want, kill who I want, and do whatever meets my whims." And you CANNOT have a society that can function with that state of mind in everyone. There would be no mass food production for everyone (who would waste their short lives farming?) No way to get food to people (who would drive a cart or a car when they could be doing something mroe interesting?) Who would police the society, who would be responsible for medicinal purposes or health, or making clothing and buildings and educating people?

 

Religion hasn't stopped people from doing those things. You know what stops them? Government. Fear of being in jail or killed yourself keeps people in check (usually). People have kids because they like sex. If people didn't like sex, most of us wouldn't be here. You see that banner on the top? The artist doesn't believe in God, yet she is being productive and doing something with her life. A number of great artists fall into that category. A number of nonbelievers have a ton of kids. A lack of an afterlife actually spurs some people to make the most of this one.

 

Having said all that, I do believe in a higher power. I do not, however, believe in organized religion simply because they seem to be moving away from actual spirituality.

 

I also have much love for Olivia and playing devil's adovate

[Olivia 26]

I think religion was to help explain the world around them, and later on to explain why certain people could do certain things but others couldn't. Which is a form of control. I don't think it's the same control you're speaking of, because if that was the case, government wouldn't have been invented.

 

I understand your point and Ekho's point, but I think it agrees with what I said. If people weren't told what was happening around them, like why the sun rises and why it rains, etc., then they would waste time trying to find out what was really happening, something that early society wasn't ready to have its members do. The people that just lazed around and considered philosophy or science all day were a very small percentage of the population, most of which were already rich or had some other means of supporting themselves so that they didn't have to do "work".

 

But what counts as murder depends on the culture/religion. It's also instinct for men to be the only sperm donor, so you could say it's in their blood to kill competion. People have kids because they like sex. If people didn't like sex, most of us wouldn't be here.

 

Those points go again with basic survival instincts - which includes the instinct to mate and yes, sex is a good feeling. Perhaps I should have originally said that people wouldn't spend decades trying to make sure their children were good, self-supportive people and instill morals into them.

 

I don't think any faith says you can kill because people scare you. They say you can kill someone of a different faith/society because they are somehow evil. Big difference.

 

Not a big difference, really. Evil is just a point of view. To a defending country, invaders seem evil and imperialistic, while the invaders see themselves as liberators or as people who are just trying to look out for their own country's needs. "Evil" is something destructive to a person or a group of people, even though it's usually beneficial to some other being.

 

And yet a number of faiths condone the stealing of human liberty.

 

I meant stealing of things like food or land or other resources, that would damage survival chances. And yes, many cultures and religions (including the popular Christianity) endorse such things as taking slaves, but only from other cultures. If a place takes slaves from their own culture, the enslaved are usually war prisoners or have failed to meet the culture's norms in some way.

 

People do that anyway.

 

(Regarding they give up on hope becuase they know they will die soon.) Yes, people do it. But it's not common for a person to going completely ape shit and disregard all society's rules or just give up on mainstream life. And for the people that do do that, it's almost always because of some psychological problems or difficulties that set them apart from average individuals.

 

Religion hasn't stopped people from doing those things. You know what stops them? Government. Fear of being in jail or killed yourself keeps people in check (usually).

 

And where does a government get its laws that it jails us for breaking? From the social morals and acceptable behavior standards, which stem from culture's need to preserve itself. Example, the government arrests and imprisons murders becuase murderers are evil. They are evil becuase killing is wrong, and killing is wrong for reasons already mentioned. I see government as the enforcers of religion (even though often the two aren't technically affiliated), or rather, of religion's teachings. Government makes sure we follow the rules, but they don't explain nature or deal with afterlife and such.

 

A lack of an afterlife actually spurs some people to make the most of this one.

 

Very true. But not everyone would be satisfied with the thought that this life is all we have. And "making the most of this life" could lead to selfish actions that are harmful to the group safety and health.

 

Having said all that, I do believe in a higher power. I do not, however, believe in organized religion simply because they seem to be moving away from actual spirituality.

 

I also believe in a higher power, but I do not have an ascribed religion. I'm spiritual; I try to think of deeper meanings of existence, like many people have over the millenia, but I don't exactly think we can be taught what happens after death or how the universe began and such. I think we should come to our own decisions, and not everyone should believe in a religion just becuase others before you have. (Not that it's exactly wrong to do so.)

 

I also have much love for Olivia and playing devil's adovate

 

<3 Much love.

[Marie 73]

But where does religion get its morals from? Clearly humans figured out what is right and wrong on their own before they discovered god(s). Religion is just a convenient way to explain why certain things are right and wrong.

 

Primitive humans didn't have a society as complex as ours, but it was still a society after a fashion. They managed to raise their young to be productive members of the clan/pack, and godless humans still manage it. Religion is all well and good, but it isn't the main reason we as humans are the way we are. Religion didn't shape us, we shaped religion and that's a big difference even if it doesn't seem like it.

[Ekho 52]

Religion didn't shape us, we shaped religion and that's a big difference even if it doesn't seem like it.

 

Very well said, and I have to admit I agree

[Olivia 26]

That's what I'm saying!!!!!!

 

People made religion to control their societies for the better, and morals were made to stop what was considered harmful to society.

 

I'm sorry I suck so badly at getting my meanings across....

[Vertex 23]

I think god made up religeon to make people be good to each other so that people wouldn't pray so much and ask for help. Which, will give him more time to do godly stuff,.. such as making virgins pregnant and buttered bread land upside down. Sooo, the moral is that we should get rid of religeon, and be mean to each other so that people pray more, in order to make buttered bread land upside up and have good breakfasts. Breakfast is the most important meal of the day after all. And world population really doesn't need alot virgins having babies too.