Proper English

[Marie 73]

Very true. But then we couldn't read it. It's like, wouldn't the people of the Westlands (Randland) have a different word for "apple"? Yes. But RJ has "translated" it for us.

[Vertex 23]

Well, bar is still english *nods* And you might imagine people from the country not just saying "apple" because they make a huge difference between winter apples and other kinds or colors. So they might go all "No... that's not an apple.. it is a Golden Delicious. Honestly City people!".

[Olivia 26]

People in WoTland do have different dialects and words. But like Marie said, it all has to be in English (or whatever language the book in translated into abroad) so that readers can enjoy it and only notice a few different words.

[Fenix 0]

Because it would just be wrong

 

The whole idea is that this was in the past in a galaxy far far away. Everything is ancient, it has to add to the atmosphere. Thy sword and all such phrases 'thee shall be..', 'thou', 'lad' It just adds to the atmoshpere. You are referring to the medievel times 500 years ago and the industrial revolution with steam engines but the time span that the Wheel of Time evolution has is not as ours has been. There have been swords 2000 years ago. Just think about it - in the Wheel of Time the invention of the wheel has never happend! It has always been there. So an age with all its revelations is much less shorter than our evolution. This was a past. All those words make it sound as something happened back in the days of the swords and thy sword. When people used different language. Hotel, bar, city mall and boulevard just would not fit in the past. As neither motel would (which is actually what a tavern is, a hotel is an Inn). That *is* the proper english.

 

[Vertex 23]

That *is* the proper english.

Eeek! Swedishness poking out *tucks it back in*

 

I'm not sure how to make you see that I am right, and you guys are wrong

 

I suppose I'll have to use metaphors (it works i preschool, after all). Suppose that Robert Jordan is infact making a movie. However, to make the movie seem old and ancent he decides to not use the color red... since they didn't have color TV a while back. But still, he uses the colors green and blue. So the whole production just looks plain silly in the end.

 

And with the other colors (green and blue) I simply mean that he does mostly use modern langauge... he even uses the term "barmaid". But I suppose they might be kinda like spear maidens but fighting with blunt long objects instead of pointed ones? *confusing*

 

So you might understand why Niklish wrinkles his nose when authors just bounced along happily and uses the fantasy spice juts to make it seem more attractive.

 

I suppose it is juts like hotdogs, they taste meat but if you eat lots of it, you'll die from a heart attack because it is infact mostly meat flavored fat.

 

I suppose RJ is juts like McDonalds though and doesn't mind what he puts in it as long as it looks good (He did add Moiraine after all) and tastes ok... Umm, I can't think of anything that actually tastes ok about WoT though. Can someone?

[Sivart Reborn 6]

I think if authors stopped trying to make things look attractive they wouldn't be attractive and therefore we wouldn't read them. Personally, I don't honestly care if he says "Bars with tavernmaids" or "Taverns with barmaids." And technically bar can just refer to the place when you buy the drinks.

[Tosh 8]

Its fantasy! It doesn't have to be bloody realistic. If he can write that the second greatest power in the world is trapped everywhere and nowhere at once by seven dinnerplates that is spread haphazardly around the world why can't he use the word inn instead of hotel? Inn sounds a lot better to me I have to say. Sounds so cozy

[Sivart Reborn 6]

I like how the Dark One's imprisonment was just described. Especially the dinnerplate part.

[Cerendrallion 32]

I think if authors stopped trying to make things look attractive they wouldn't be attractive and therefore we wouldn't read them.

 

Oh, I 100% agree with you there. Its about how its written as much as whats it about to me.

 

Doesn't matter if its a brilliant idea...has to be well-written as well.

[Fenix 0]

Eeek! Swedishness poking out *tucks it back in*

 

I Did not get this one....

 

I'm not sure how to make you see that I am right, and you guys are wrong

 

There is no way, 'cos we are right

 

 

I suppose I'll have to use metaphors (it works i preschool, after all). Suppose that Robert Jordan is infact making a movie. However, to make the movie seem old and ancent he decides to not use the color red... since they didn't have color TV a while back. But still, he uses the colors green and blue. So the whole production just looks plain silly in the end.

 

And with the other colors (green and blue) I simply mean that he does mostly use modern langauge...

 

Although the methaphors example is not that good (after all he makes the movie for us, not for them, so it doesn't matter if they had TVs ) we are not in preschool and I get what you mean.

Still I do not see anything wrong with adding the flavour to it. If you think about it it just cannot be fully realistic, it should just feel right. If it had to be realistic, then it why english at all. Why didn't he write everything in a language that does not exist anymore. He has to do it close to reality so that the people that are supposed to buy it can understand it but he can still try to make you feel as if you are reading something that happend a long time ago.

To make my point clear: Let us reverse the process. You say, why does he uses an old word when there is a new one (e.g. tavern instead of a bar/hotel). Take science fiction. Star Trek, Star Wars, whatever. Why do they use words like Timeshifter, Stargate, Spacecraft. If it everything was 'today's language' and there were no new gadgets would you feel as if you are reading something that is happening in the future It just makes the whole story to sound 'right' for its time...

 

Just my 2 (euro)cents

[Sivart Reborn 6]

Eep! His cents are worth more than my cents!

[Kaitlin 22]

*disagrees with Vertex about everything!*

[Vertex 23]

I think if authors stopped trying to make things look attractive they wouldn't be attractive and therefore we wouldn't read them. Personally, I don't honestly care if he says "Bars with tavernmaids" or "Taverns with barmaids." And technically bar can just refer to the place when you buy the drinks.

 

Niklas belives there is a difference between writing attractive litterature and using cliches to ride on other authors' backs. That's what I meant with using spices... You should put your own stuff in it instead of buying some favor to make it seem as if it was stuff inside it.

 

Doesn't matter if its a brilliant idea...has to be well-written as well.

 

But that's my point! It has to be well written. But if you base it upon fantasyt cliches it'll just be trash. And I think that's why alot of fantasy, and sci-fi for that matter, have a hard time being considered serious fiction. They are simply not written with a language that impresses people with any sense of taste. *so evil it hurts* I haven't looked, but me suspects RJ's books have a hard time with winning any literary awards.

 

Although the methaphors example is not that good (after all he makes the movie for us, not for them, so it doesn't matter if they had TVs ) we are not in preschool and I get what you mean.

 

But I loves them... here is thus another one about cliches. They are like saying when you are a kid "my Dad is bigger than yours!"... You use references that sounds good. But when it comes down to it, your dad would not go beat up the other kid's dad. And if the other kid is older or perhaps just brighter, he'll just think you are being silly.

 

I Did not get this one....

I simply meant that I have no natural feel for the word tavern or inn being Swedish and that's why I lazily compared them to Bar and hotel.

 

Still I do not see anything wrong with adding the flavour to it. If you think about it it just cannot be fully realistic, it should just feel right. If it had to be realistic, then it why english at all.

 

Flavor isn't bad, but if you rely on it rather than substance, it'll just be silly. And I'm not sure I ever expected it to be more realistic... in fact, I'd rather want it to be more surrealistic... But, regardles of the realism in a literary work, I belive you should strive to use as rich and innovative language as possible.

 

*disagrees with Vertex about everything!*

Ohh Kittling *argueargue*

[Kaitlin 22]

*debates, stands on soapbox, and waves flag of rightness at Nikly*

 

I have nothing much to argue about actually in this thread, because I think that both sides have very valid points. There is a such thing as flavor, and it is important to a story. If a story was set in Sweden rather than the US (Or India, Ireland, etc. ) there would be different terms used for similar things. What I mean to say is, even if things were written in the exact same language the entire flavor of the book would, and should be different. It is being authentic.

 

On the other hand, too many cliches do ruin a story. Storytellers should strive toward making something their own. If they rely too much on recycled material the story will suffer. How much is too much can and has been debated.

[jan 14]

So, everyone's right, everyone agrees. Yay!