The Gathering Storm Thread

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

 

I, for one, am glad that Rand exiled Cadsuane. I hope she accidentally shows her face so he can destroy her, or at least still her. Nynaeve is starting to come around on the whole "controlling Rand" thing, Cadsuane needs to as well. I just despise her haughty I-am-so-goddamn-old-so-I-know-better-than-you attitude. She needs to be taken down a peg or ten. Perhaps when the three Super BFF's come together one of them will show her a thing or two. I'm thinking Mat will do something, like woo her then humiliate her. Ah to see that woman humbled will make the entire series for me. I actually applauded when my audio book came to the part where Rand basically said "ok that does it GTFO".

 

I, for one, loath that kind of attitude. What I especially loath is that there seems to be a theme in WoT regarding women being 'taken down a peg or two', and sometimes it becomes so apparently obvious that its almost sickening.

 

I disagree.

 

There are a few people in the series that need to be humbled. Many of them simply happen to be female characters.

 

That shouldn't be surprising. Bear in mind that since the Breaking, the world's most powerful citizens are female channelers, so naturally the world is matriarchal.

 

3000 years of chaos at the hands of madmen gave birth to this self-righteousness, which leads to characters like Cadsuane and to a lesser extent Nynaeve, all believing that men are "woolheads" and need a sense of wisdom which comes from characters who wield the most awesome force in the world.

 

Conversely, the female characters in WoT don't fall into a dichotomy in which they are either haughty and powerful (Cadsuane) or weak and simpering. I contend that there are myriad characters who command the utmost respect but don't exude this manipulative arrogance toward Rand.

 

Moiraine herself, I believe, was never this way. The direction she gave Rand was primarily out of the attitude of "the prophecies must be fulfilled." Sometimes condescending, or given that impression, because Moiraine was the noblewoman and Rand was still the shepherd. But if anything, Rand laments her loss and wishes she was back.

 

Egwene seemed to always stand on equal footing with Rand. As a girl she would always admonish him, but I am not sure it is her intention to try to force him to a direction he does not wish to go.

 

I think the theme you're missing is the underlying theme that all of Robert Jordan's main characters in the Wheel of Time are stubborn and unwilling to yield to someone else's wishes. So when someone like Cadsuane comes along who always gets her way by brow-beating someone into submission, the readers (or at least I) rejoice when Rand shows his true Two Rivers ways and tells her in no certain terms to get bent.

 

Didn't you feel the same type of satisfaction whenever Egwene told the Salidar sisters to get over it when she raised Nynaeve and Elayne and those two others to full Aes Sedai, or those times that Sorilea smacks down the "civilized" people west of the Spine of the World.

Edited February 13, 2010 by FortyFiveAuto

[Cerendrallion 32]

 

I, for one, am glad that Rand exiled Cadsuane. I hope she accidentally shows her face so he can destroy her, or at least still her. Nynaeve is starting to come around on the whole "controlling Rand" thing, Cadsuane needs to as well. I just despise her haughty I-am-so-goddamn-old-so-I-know-better-than-you attitude. She needs to be taken down a peg or ten. Perhaps when the three Super BFF's come together one of them will show her a thing or two. I'm thinking Mat will do something, like woo her then humiliate her. Ah to see that woman humbled will make the entire series for me. I actually applauded when my audio book came to the part where Rand basically said "ok that does it GTFO".

 

I, for one, loath that kind of attitude. What I especially loath is that there seems to be a theme in WoT regarding women being 'taken down a peg or two', and sometimes it becomes so apparently obvious that its almost sickening.

 

I disagree.

 

There are a few people in the series that need to be humbled. Many of them simply happen to be female characters.

 

That shouldn't be surprising. Bear in mind that since the Breaking, the world's most powerful citizens are female channelers, so naturally the world is matriarchal.

 

3000 years of chaos at the hands of madmen gave birth to this self-righteousness, which leads to characters like Cadsuane and to a lesser extent Nynaeve, all believing that men are "woolheads" and need a sense of wisdom which comes from characters who wield the most awesome force in the world.

 

Conversely, the female characters in WoT don't fall into a dichotomy in which they are either haughty and powerful (Cadsuane) or weak and simpering. I contend that there are myriad characters who command the utmost respect but don't exude this manipulative arrogance toward Rand.

 

Moiraine herself, I believe, was never this way. The direction she gave Rand was primarily out of the attitude of "the prophecies must be fulfilled." Sometimes condescending, or given that impression, because Moiraine was the noblewoman and Rand was still the shepherd. But if anything, Rand laments her loss and wishes she was back.

 

Egwene seemed to always stand on equal footing with Rand. As a girl she would always admonish him, but I am not sure it is her intention to try to force him to a direction he does not wish to go.

 

I think the theme you're missing is the underlying theme that all of Robert Jordan's main characters in the Wheel of Time are stubborn and unwilling to yield to someone else's wishes. So when someone like Cadsuane comes along who always gets her way by brow-beating someone into submission, the readers (or at least I) rejoice when Rand shows his true Two Rivers ways and tells her in no certain terms to get bent.

 

Didn't you feel the same type of satisfaction whenever Egwene told the Salidar sisters to get over it when she raised Nynaeve and Elayne and those two others to full Aes Sedai, or those times that Sorilea smacks down the "civilized" people west of the Spine of the World.

 

I'm somewhat incredulous you deny that there is a theme of slight misogyny. Surely this is accepted fact throughout WOT messageboards?

 

What you fail to understand is the gender perceptions In WOT are forever skewed in favour of men, and RJ evidently held quite traditionalist views. A matriarchial world, shock, horror, that is slowly coming under the influence of men once again in order to 'right' it. How very conventional.

 

What I disliked dreadfully in your original post was the idea that sexual humiliation of women was somehow justified if they were in any way acting above their station - how dare Cadsuane try to influence Rand and show him that his utter arrogance was unpleasant. I find Rand's arrogance the repulsive thing and sometimes to deal with the unpleasant you, in turn, must be unpleasant. Sexual humiliation, however, is sickening.

 

Contrary to what you seem to believe, no, I take no pleasure in the subjugation of mainly female characters. If they are male they're shown to be fops, idiots or enemies, whilst the women are very often only strong women who, quite frankly, have no real reason to bow to a shepherd. I'm surprised there's always such an uproar over the Aes Sedai being squeamish about swearing featy - surely its completely understandable? The women that bow to men's will are Aes Sedai who have gone through years of training and oh, no! demand respect. How very dare they. I would ask you to consider the difference if Aes Sedai were men - I think their case would be viewed much more sympathetically indeed. If they were men, they'd be 'strong' men, but because they're women they're nagging.

 

Its a pretty damn standard case of mild misogyny if you ask me.

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

I'm somewhat incredulous you deny that there is a theme of slight misogyny. Surely this is accepted fact throughout WOT messageboards?

 

I don't subscribe to other WoT boards, so I wouldn't know. What do you define as "slightly misogynistic?" I have a feeling that once I am done with this post, I will submit that if anything RJ's fiction could fairly be described as egalitarian as it can be without being so watered-down and politically-correct that it probably wouldn't have best-selling titles or the following that it does.

 

What you fail to understand is the gender perceptions In WOT are forever skewed in favour of men, and RJ evidently held quite traditionalist views. A matriarchial world, shock, horror, that is slowly coming under the influence of men once again in order to 'right' it. How very conventional.

 

Remember that it was Nynaeve who helped Rand cleanse saidin; it is Egwene who currently controls the Tower, and it is Elayne that holds the largest territory in Randland by her own right, condemning Rand's insistence upon him "giving her" Andor.

 

Rand's control, if it can be called that, over the land is shaky at best. Male channelers have done little to right the world as you say. Contrarily, according to their lieutenant, the Lord of Chaos is ruling.

 

What I disliked dreadfully in your original post was the idea that sexual humiliation of women was somehow justified if they were in any way acting above their station - how dare Cadsuane try to influence Rand and show him that his utter arrogance was unpleasant. I find Rand's arrogance the repulsive thing and sometimes to deal with the unpleasant you, in turn, must be unpleasant. Sexual humiliation, however, is sickening.

 

The statement about Mat wooing Cadsuane then humiliating her was admittedly tongue-in-cheek, but it was only that. No notion of sexual humiliation was explicitly indicated nor implicitly intended. More along the lines of love spurned due to his raw ta'veren magnetism, as has happened in the past, but once again it was simply a musing.

 

In any case, I think Cadsuane is a total bitch, not just to Rand, but more often to esteemed Aes Sedai as well.

 

Contrary to what you seem to believe, no, I take no pleasure in the subjugation of mainly female characters. If they are male they're shown to be fops, idiots or enemies whilst the women are very often only strong women who, quite frankly, have no real reason to bow to a shepherd.

 

That's because strong women rule the WoT world, and it's getting tipped on its side by the Dragon Reborn. It's not any wonder that Rand should have to assert his power over the females who rule the world.

 

Besides, King Stepaneos of Illian, King Laman of Cairhien, Bukama (Lan's man), Pedron Niall the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light, and Couladin of the Shaido Aiel, to name a very few, are examples of powerful men who don't fit your (decidedly broad) profile, made dead all the same.

 

Rand may have been a shepherd before, but Egwene was from the same village, too, and now has very experienced and powerful women kissing her ring.

 

I'm surprised there's always such an uproar over the Aes Sedai being squeamish about swearing featy - surely its completely understandable? The women that bow to men's will are Aes Sedai who have gone through years of training and oh, no! demand respect. How very dare they. I would ask you to consider the difference if Aes Sedai were men - I think their case would be viewed much more sympathetically indeed. If they were men, they'd be 'strong' men, but because they're women they're nagging.

 

I am curious how fealty can be viewed as strong, coming from man or woman. But in the fiction's defense, only a handful of Aes Sedai swore fealty to Rand. The majority of the White Tower made no such oath.

 

Its a pretty damn standard case of mild misogyny if you ask me.

 

In a world that has:

 

-been shredded by male insanity

-a female ruler at the helm of the most powerful society of channelers

-a very young woman who quite efficiently runs the return of Seanchan (whose highest ruler is the Empress)

-a female soothsayer (the only one of her kind)

-more female main characters than male

-a recurrent trend of women being primary homeowners, business owners, and bankers, AND FINALLY

-Maidens of the Spear,

 

I cannot see how this opinion has as much consensus as you claim.

Edited February 14, 2010 by FortyFiveAuto

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

What about:

 

-Ogier females arranging marriages with absolutely no male input

-Women's Circles with as much sway as Village Councils who frequently interfere with their business but expressly forbid meddling in their own.

-More male Forsaken than female

-No female Myrddraal

-Atha'an Miere women are always the captains of their vessels.

-References to the Dark One include male pronouns, whereas references to the Creator are gender-neutral, if memory serves.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that if the Wheel of Time is sexist, it leans toward misandry.

[Sivart Reborn 7]

In an attempt to avoid further claims of bias and sexism, I'd say Jordan randomly over-compensates on either side of the board. The sexism isn't that one is innately more good, or evil, or better so much as men and women have separate spheres of influence, and the meeting of these spheres usually ends in one of the two sexes getting the short end of the stick.

 

But, again, one of the frequent themes in WoTverse is the polarization of the world. Light vs. Dark and Women vs. Men. I think the fact the True Source is divided along gender lines would be a clear indicator of that.

 

Another one of those themes is that the two are not nearly as effective apart than together, so many Egwene and Rand can make nice and improve the world drastically? Assuming one or both of them survives and all.

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

In an attempt to avoid further claims of bias and sexism, I'd say Jordan randomly over-compensates on either side of the board. The sexism isn't that one is innately more good, or evil, or better so much as men and women have separate spheres of influence, and the meeting of these spheres usually ends in one of the two sexes getting the short end of the stick.

 

But, again, one of the frequent themes in WoTverse is the polarization of the world. Light vs. Dark and Women vs. Men. I think the fact the True Source is divided along gender lines would be a clear indicator of that.

 

Another one of those themes is that the two are not nearly as effective apart than together, so many Egwene and Rand can make nice and improve the world drastically? Assuming one or both of them survives and all.

 

Point taken, well stated.

[Marie 73]

RJ himself insisted that aside from Far Madding he had attempted to create egalitarian societies, not matriarchies.

 

The world of channelers is different since for 3000 years male channelers have been hunted down like dogs. At one point Rand notes that at times even Moiraine looks at him with eyes that see the Dragon Reborn, a man who will destroy the world.

 

I think the White Tower needed a wake up call; they have done nothing to advance the human race and instead of acting on their knowledge cache they sit on it like hens. The problem for me comes in how they are being slapped into action. But then, it seems a lot of the recent examples of Aes Sedai have been less than the Moiraine ideal, and almost, almost, deserving of their punishment.

 

I also did not like Cad vs Rand, however, it seems to me this is really a setup for Moiraine's return and to highlight Rand's need of her. Still, I did not like it, but then I don't like Rand.

 

I think RJ was trying to show why these characters needed to work in partnership, unfortunately it usually comes across as "why women need men".

[Kaitlin 22]

Forty Five, I'm not going to quote your posts as they are quite long and there is much to get into, but I would say that since you seem to want Cerendrallion to educate you (and possibly whoever else responding to your questions about the difference between misandry, misogyny, egalitarian societies and how that relates to WoT versus the real world) I do think I can help you out in another way.

 

It's not really our jobs to teach anyone about any of this simply because they ask, but this blog is a good starting point. To understand RJ's traditionalist views and how they might have skewed his interpretation of a world he wished to classify as largely egalitarian it's important to understand Feminism in the real world and as a whole.

 

I don't suggest the link as a way to take what's there and bring it back here. It would get a little off-topicy, but it's a good place to start to get a better understanding of such a complicated issue.

 

RJ's world is one that is a little backlashy, to my mind. I think he started out with something in mind, something which quickly became evident pretty universally by a lot of fans as a confusion of "needing to work in partnership" and "putting women back in their places". He deals with both of those things in his books. When he was not at his most successful in writing about his desire to write about partnerships things did degenerate into a kind of revenge fantasy in mild way. That's just evident with what happened with the AS. Cad in particular.

 

The Ogier and the Women's Circle in the TR were very stereotypical of the "nagging woman" stereotype, weren't they? That's not an unbiased example of female power. I would consider them examples of misogyny, myself, since they contribute to the bias against women in the books. Remember, that it's usually the men bemoaning the fact that these women have so much control over them. The Aes Sedai are treated like "uppity" (and I hate that word) women.

 

I think with a more forward thinking view RJ's vision of people working together in partnership may have been much less cluttered with those traditional biases, and his books would have been better for it.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Kaitlin

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

You seem to suggest that I am ignorant, but which of my characterizations of any of the aforementioned concepts was inaccurate? Let me start with a question -- You aren't denying that women in the WoT are powerful, but since you opined that they are portrayed as "nagging," that makes their representation misogynistic?

 

If what you are suggesting is that RJ was bad at conveying egalitarian partnerships between the sexes, the evidence of which being men vis-a-vis Aes Sedai and particularly Cadsuane, why do you not consider Occam's razor, in that perhaps it was simply his intention to employ elements of conflict? As I have said, stronger than the suggestion of misogyny is the overtone of stubbornness. Aes Sedai and particularly Cadsuane are used to getting what they want. Rand and everyone from the Two Rivers, since TEoTW, have overtly been attributed with going any way but the way you try to push them. Why, therefore, is the accusation of misogyny warranted?

 

The continued use of the adjective "mild" makes the misogyny argument very banal, in my opinion. Consider the source -- a two-time Vietnam combat veteran with an education in hard science raised in South Carolina, and needless to say a male. Any such person will likely have what you might call "traditional" views. I think to expect otherwise is unrealistic, yet here we are in a world where women rule the roost, fact. Is it perfect? No, but I enjoy it, and the New York Bestsellers list seems to think a lot of other people do, too. I wonder how many people who continue to buy book after book complain about "mild misogyny" and tout it as a fair criticism of his work, especially considering the source.

 

Specifically how would you have altered the plot or what verbiage would you have edited to realize what you characterize as a "forward-thinking view" in this fiction?

 

Within the world of the WoT, it is a fact that women have privilege over men. Women may be subjectively perceived as "naggers." I do not see them this way. I simply see a world set in its ways for 3000 years being turned upside down by splendidly horrific machinations of the mind.

 

Please be mindful that I am not telling you to not have your opinion. I just don't think it's a fair criticism of RJ's work, and to call it misogynistic in spite of it sounds like defeatism. On the other hand, per your gracious link:

 

I think that those who would rather avoid acknowledging the global injustices that women face, those who deem themselves successful in the struggle, those who find it easier to accuse us of ‘whining’ rather than critically examining their own role in those injustices when we speak about them, are further enabled in their deliberate ignorance by the “you can help yourself” school of thought. Individual solutions for collective problems don’t work.Not everyone can help themselves. Should we stop speaking about that because it’s percieved as ‘whining’? Many, many women actually are victims – and many more still are survivors – should we, as feminists, really be saying “shit happens, get over it – I have” when, globally, the making of women as victims (and survivors) is systemic and political? I’m thinking, not.

 

I’m thinking the “stop whining” response is one that comes from those who’d like to close us down, shut us up, make us be quiet.

 

Which is fine, except that within the scope of the WoT, women aren't disadvantaged. However, is that supposed to mean that ANY perceived sexism is legitimate, and anyone who disagrees with said perception must be a willful oppressor of women?

 

I find it amusing that you would cite an admittedly partial, left-of-center blog as your means for supporting an ill-projected argument that RJ's TWoT is biased against women.

Edited February 21, 2010 by FortyFiveAuto

[Kaitlin 22]

You seem to suggest that I am ignorant,

 

Yes. Ignorance isn't a bad thing, unless it's willful.

[jan 14]

That RJ's WoT is biased against women is not ill-projected at all. I think we've established that time and again over here!

[Ekho 52]

I agree that any WoT bias is unintentional, I simply think RJ views on women were old fashioned, so whilst he tried to create powerful women to balance out the powerful men, it didn't quite work as intended...If that makes sense

[Marie 73]

There is also reader bias to consider. He never intended for the women to come across as negative as some fans have found them to be.

[Kaitlin 22]

That's a good point.

[FortyFiveAuto 1]

That RJ's WoT is biased against women is not ill-projected at all. I think we've established that time and again over here!

 

Eh, consider the source, and their ardor for leftist doctrine.

 

RJ himself set out to create an ideally egalitarian world. With nearly every chapter riddled with some exclamation like, "Woolbrained men!" or some such suggestion that men are "ox-brained" and need the guidance of a woman to do right, the question still stands how this opinion can be so.

 

Indeed, there are some instances where women characters are denigrated by others' thoughts, but if anything I think the balance tips in the favor of the overall female deprecation of men.

 

Do you mean to contend that RJ's choice of such verbiage is intended to placate women? If so, I pose the question -- would it have been better in your eyes for RJ to be openly chauvinistic in his writing? No quarter for female characters at all, just a testosterone chest-thumping put-women-in-their-place series?

 

If you have established that RJ is biased against women time and time again here, rather than point me to fringe websites, why don't you fire up an archived post logically and objectively citing such bias?